Gods and Goddesses

Page 4 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu May 28, 2009 9:59 pm

gillyflower wrote:I just don't think that ANYONE reads the threads. Smile

John, you have every right to control what is practiced, taught and believed within your own group. That is doable. That is not what this conversation is about. If indeed someone comes along and joins your group and teaches stuff you don't like or agree with, you really should kick him or her out or, if the others back that person, you should find a new group.

If someone comes along and claims to be part of your umbrella group and you disagree with the practices or anything else, you have every right to disagree and tell others that is not what your group is about and you can also spout your beliefs about where they are wrong. I believe that you will agree that, especially if that person lives on the other side of the country or in a different country, you are not going to be able to stop him or her from calling themselves a (fill in the blank umbrella term)? Even if you disagree with them? You won't be able to stop other people from joining that persons group and enjoying it? Or stop them from continuing to prosper and attract new adherents for many, many years?

The question that was posed was do you act like an asshole to people who disagree with you about your religion? Do you attack them in public forums? Do you act like the Evangelicals act towards Catholics and Mormons and try to kick them out of the umbrella group. I posted this earlier and it sums up my feelings about doing that:

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

About your Christian post. I really have NEVER quizzed a Christian (or anyone except those who wanted to join my traditions) about what they believe before I accept that they are Christian or accept that they believe that they are Christian. I could care less if other people within a religion do or do not believe that they are Christian. I am not going to back any of the Christian sects that want to eject the other Christian sects because they aren't Christian enough. I am not going to back any CRs who want to eject other CRs from calling themselves CRs. Those are not my fights and frankly they look pretty silly to me.

I believe that terms and words have meaning too by the way. I get mine from the dictionary quite often. I don't see how acting like an ass to other people has anything to do with that.

Wait, wait, wait. When did anyone ever say it was okay to treat someone like an ass? I've read and reread the thread, no one has stated that you get to be a dick to people who you do not think should be calling themselves X, because you don't think they are X. Calling someone on their claims, arguing based on facts, and pointing out where someone is incorrect is not being a dick nor is it attacking them; its encouraging discussion and discourse. If someone makes a statement, they should be able to back it up, or at least explain why they believe their statement is true. Disagreement does not have to be uncivil and descend into a flame war, civil disagreements are possible.

_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.

Coffee Three Shouts on a Hilltop
avatar
Gorm_Sionnach
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 838
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Toronto, ON, Canada.

http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Dromahair on Fri May 29, 2009 11:42 am

Ah, the ever expanding umbrella. (do the old Drinking Game rules apply over here?)

We start with a word that means something.

Someone else comes along and decides to apply that word to themselves (despite the fact it has nothing to do with them) and now (because we're all supposed to be nice and tolerant and labels are bad anyway) the umbrella gets bigger. Then more and more people come along who don't want to trouble themselves with squeezing in under the umbrella, rather they demand that the umbrella expand to accommodate them. The umbrella gets still bigger - but the WORD is now so bent out of shape as to be meaningless.

This is exactly the sort of think that happens in cases of cultural appropriation. First Nations groups have been fighting EXACTLY this sort of thing for years - and a great many others besides. It's the old "Wicca is Celtic" debate all over again. No, Wicca is NOT Celtic and saying it enough times will not make it so! Except, of course, that the attitude I see being presented here is that if someone says Wicca is Celtic we must expand the ol' umbrella and bloody well make it Celtic rather than looking bad to a bunch of outsiders who really don't care (because if they did care they would likely know better).

Inclusiveness is all fine and dandy but there have got to be limits. Some folks need to either get used to standing out in the rain or they've got to find their own umbrellas.
avatar
Dromahair

Posts : 38
Join date : 2009-04-26
Location : Fort Worth

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by MaineCaptain on Fri May 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Honestly, I do not know why someone would wish to claim a title and then change it completely.
But I have never understood people come to rural Maine from Boston and New York, to get away from the city, and then trying to turn rural Maine into Boston and New York. So what do I know??

_________________
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
avatar
MaineCaptain
Admin
Admin

Posts : 2869
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : New England

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Fri May 29, 2009 1:29 pm

Yes, and what about the people who moved to the Southwest to escape pollens and planted those same things out there?

And Drom who sets the limits on each umbrella term - please name that person if you will - and how does that person enforce them? That is what I asked and has yet to be answered.

I think practical application and an unwillingness to do more than shoot ones mouth off and call names is where some of the posturing falls flat.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Fri May 29, 2009 1:32 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I just don't think that ANYONE reads the threads. Smile

John, you have every right to control what is practiced, taught and believed within your own group. That is doable. That is not what this conversation is about. If indeed someone comes along and joins your group and teaches stuff you don't like or agree with, you really should kick him or her out or, if the others back that person, you should find a new group.

If someone comes along and claims to be part of your umbrella group and you disagree with the practices or anything else, you have every right to disagree and tell others that is not what your group is about and you can also spout your beliefs about where they are wrong. I believe that you will agree that, especially if that person lives on the other side of the country or in a different country, you are not going to be able to stop him or her from calling themselves a (fill in the blank umbrella term)? Even if you disagree with them? You won't be able to stop other people from joining that persons group and enjoying it? Or stop them from continuing to prosper and attract new adherents for many, many years?

The question that was posed was do you act like an asshole to people who disagree with you about your religion? Do you attack them in public forums? Do you act like the Evangelicals act towards Catholics and Mormons and try to kick them out of the umbrella group. I posted this earlier and it sums up my feelings about doing that:

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

About your Christian post. I really have NEVER quizzed a Christian (or anyone except those who wanted to join my traditions) about what they believe before I accept that they are Christian or accept that they believe that they are Christian. I could care less if other people within a religion do or do not believe that they are Christian. I am not going to back any of the Christian sects that want to eject the other Christian sects because they aren't Christian enough. I am not going to back any CRs who want to eject other CRs from calling themselves CRs. Those are not my fights and frankly they look pretty silly to me.

I believe that terms and words have meaning too by the way. I get mine from the dictionary quite often. I don't see how acting like an ass to other people has anything to do with that.

Wait, wait, wait. When did anyone ever say it was okay to treat someone like an ass? I've read and reread the thread, no one has stated that you get to be a dick to people who you do not think should be calling themselves X, because you don't think they are X. Calling someone on their claims, arguing based on facts, and pointing out where someone is incorrect is not being a dick nor is it attacking them; its encouraging discussion and discourse. If someone makes a statement, they should be able to back it up, or at least explain why they believe their statement is true. Disagreement does not have to be uncivil and descend into a flame war, civil disagreements are possible.

You did. That was when you started name calling. If someone does not wish to accept your judgement about what they call themselves, they don't have to and there is no way you can make them. Do you have to accept my judgement about what I think you should call yourself? Does anyone even have to argue about it or listen to you?

You have every right to hold your opinions but so does everyone else. It's what you do next - do you name call? Attack on line if they disagree with you? That's what we have been talking about. That's why SG said she didn't do it because she didn't want to come off looking like a jerk.


Last edited by gillyflower on Fri May 29, 2009 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri May 29, 2009 1:43 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I just don't think that ANYONE reads the threads. Smile

John, you have every right to control what is practiced, taught and believed within your own group. That is doable. That is not what this conversation is about. If indeed someone comes along and joins your group and teaches stuff you don't like or agree with, you really should kick him or her out or, if the others back that person, you should find a new group.

If someone comes along and claims to be part of your umbrella group and you disagree with the practices or anything else, you have every right to disagree and tell others that is not what your group is about and you can also spout your beliefs about where they are wrong. I believe that you will agree that, especially if that person lives on the other side of the country or in a different country, you are not going to be able to stop him or her from calling themselves a (fill in the blank umbrella term)? Even if you disagree with them? You won't be able to stop other people from joining that persons group and enjoying it? Or stop them from continuing to prosper and attract new adherents for many, many years?

The question that was posed was do you act like an asshole to people who disagree with you about your religion? Do you attack them in public forums? Do you act like the Evangelicals act towards Catholics and Mormons and try to kick them out of the umbrella group. I posted this earlier and it sums up my feelings about doing that:

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

About your Christian post. I really have NEVER quizzed a Christian (or anyone except those who wanted to join my traditions) about what they believe before I accept that they are Christian or accept that they believe that they are Christian. I could care less if other people within a religion do or do not believe that they are Christian. I am not going to back any of the Christian sects that want to eject the other Christian sects because they aren't Christian enough. I am not going to back any CRs who want to eject other CRs from calling themselves CRs. Those are not my fights and frankly they look pretty silly to me.

I believe that terms and words have meaning too by the way. I get mine from the dictionary quite often. I don't see how acting like an ass to other people has anything to do with that.

Wait, wait, wait. When did anyone ever say it was okay to treat someone like an ass? I've read and reread the thread, no one has stated that you get to be a dick to people who you do not think should be calling themselves X, because you don't think they are X. Calling someone on their claims, arguing based on facts, and pointing out where someone is incorrect is not being a dick nor is it attacking them; its encouraging discussion and discourse. If someone makes a statement, they should be able to back it up, or at least explain why they believe their statement is true. Disagreement does not have to be uncivil and descend into a flame war, civil disagreements are possible.

You did. That was when you started name calling. If someone does not wish to accept your judgement about what they call themselves, they don't have to and there is no way you can make them. Do you have to accept my judgement about what I think you should call yourself? Does anyone even have to argue about it or listen to you?

When did I start name calling? I explained why I used the term Neo-Pagan (and that I use it interchangably with Pagan, Paganism, Modern Paganism) and Neo-Wiccan (which I was using in a developmental sense, as explained to me by someone on the old site) in my previous posts; it had nothing what so ever to do with using them as pejoritives or looking down on other people. I'm sorry if that is the interpretation you got, but I did explain...

[quote=]Re: Gods and Goddesses

Gorm_Sionnach on Tue May 26, 2009 9:44 pm


gillyflower wrote:
Why do you call people NeoPagans when they don't call themselves that? Do you self identify as a NeoPagan? Do you call the Celtic Reconstructionists NeoCelts?

I think that you use it as an insult correct?


Well CR's either refer to themselves as such, or Celtic Reconstructionist Polytheists (CRP), or Gaelic Recon Poly (GRP), Paganachd(t), or any other number of names depending on the tradition one belongs to. So, for example, I am a GRP of the Fálachus tradition.

As far as neoCelts go, there are some who refer to themselves as such, its kind of silly since there are existing Celtic cultures and communities. As far as the neo-Pagan label goes, I switch it up between Pagan, Neo-Pagan, NeoPagan, I understand what I mean.

As far as something like NeoWicca however, that actually describes a particular segment of the Wiccan population, which is outside core Wicca, but not watered down enough to be Wiccanesque. Its all a mater of perspective.[/quote]

And later addressing the use of NeoWicca and Wiccanesque

[quote=] Re: Gods and Goddesses
Gorm_Sionnach on Tue May 26, 2009 11:16 pm


I understand, no offense intended. Though I do not believe that Creaky (which incidentally is where I picked up the differentiation) was not using it to establish some sort of hierarchy, merely the developmental history of Wicca...

Yes I think that Wiccanesque and NeoWiccan could be seen as pejorative.

As far as the "Neo" Label goes, I've seen it argued that it is supposed to be a method of differentiating between the historic "Pagans" and modern Pagans, depending on context it makes sense, makes no sense, is ambivalent.[/quote]

_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.

Coffee Three Shouts on a Hilltop
avatar
Gorm_Sionnach
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 838
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Toronto, ON, Canada.

http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri May 29, 2009 4:00 pm

Dromahair wrote:Ah, the ever expanding umbrella. (do the old Drinking Game rules apply over here?)


Of course they do!
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Fri May 29, 2009 5:00 pm

Blow Up I hate this preview crap! I lost an entire post....! Where is my detenater when I needs it? ......(Charlie Brown's AAAAUUUGGHHHH)
I have read this entire thread...was doing well, when I suddenly became confused:

OK< to sum up what I wanted to say.....Please someone correct me if I am wrong on this.
Umbrella? Pagan
Sect? Witch
Group? Heritage
Source? Earth
Identity? Green
Region? Italian
Family? Solitary

Mentally? Humankind has this basic need to "fit in", "conform", "associate" We have become a clan, tribe, kinsmen, even nomads stick together!
When someone shows me the complete opposite behavior of my kind. Getting on the path, falling off the path... I am confused immediately (don't we? haven't we drew from the same well for nourishment and knowledge?)

Physically? Do I judge them? Should I banish them? Could I Guide them? Should I find a level of understanding and open up my own spirit to connect with theirs? Do I cast them aside and let them fend for themselves?

Experience teaches us all how far we can allow ourselves to venture from our own chosen paths. To call upon ourselves not necessarily to judge, but to watch with open mind, and open heart. What to put up with, what to deal with, when to give up the battles, just to win the war. When to turn and walk away, so be it.

Ego how big or small the love of power/control...always gets in the way of humankind and our search for that ever evolving, ever changing but constant spirit within.

Spiritually? Do I wage a war of wills, and choices? If harmed, Do I protect, by reacting? Do I draw spirit outwardly and let nature take its course?
Do I open and seek something of value something I am lacking in? Do I learn another lesson?
avatar
Willowcreek70633
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 816
Join date : 2009-05-28
Location : SWLA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri May 29, 2009 5:27 pm

Hmm, I'm sorry you're having issues with the preview button. I don't really use it so I'm not sure what's going on. Mad Edit: I did this post and it worked fine. I generally use the 'quick reply' below the last post, meself.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri May 29, 2009 5:30 pm

I have never had any problems with it. confused
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Fri May 29, 2009 5:50 pm

Gorm, I can't quite figure out what you've added to the quotes that you've quoted. Could you repost your point?

I'll answer my own question of Who gets to decide where the end of the umbrella for a religion is - naming names - and how do they enforce it?

1. Who gets to decide where the end of the umbrella term is? I do. I am also quite aware that no one else might draw the line quite there. There will be people who draw it farther out and others who will draw their line to eliminate everyone but their sect. My sect does not care where the line is for any umbrella term. People outside of the sect can call themselves anything they want.

2. How do I enforce my will on those people whose practices I have decided fall outside the umbrella term? I don't. They can call themselves anything they want. I will say "That's not what my tradition teaches." If they are interested in what my tradition teaches, they will ask. If they are serious about Wicca, they will read more books and find better teachers and learn more about Wicca without being attacked or called ugly names by me.

If they aren't serious about Wicca, they will find their way to a new religion, or back to their old religion, hopefully without thinking all Wiccans are jerks. I think goodwill is important.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Fri May 29, 2009 9:20 pm

I must agree with you gillyflower, goodwill along with good intentions are important for all concerned.
avatar
Willowcreek70633
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 816
Join date : 2009-05-28
Location : SWLA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Fri May 29, 2009 9:34 pm

We have many factions within New Thought, and when we were cooperative in the beginning, as Gilly advised, our faith flourished. Divine Science was HUGE in the 50s. They were one of the US's most successful denominations, until they started infighting; some churches wanted to follow more of the Brooks sisters teachings, some wanted to follow more of Cramer's teachings (the two groups, when they were alive, worked hand-in-hand together to begin and spread Divine Science). After they died all this infighting crap broke loose.

As a result, the denomination died. There are now approximately 13 Divine Science churches in the United States. The Brooks and Ms. Cramer would be incredibly disappointed to learn of the collapse. As a student of Divine Science, it breaks my little heart. Sad

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 12:24 am

gillyflower wrote:Gorm, I can't quite figure out what you've added to the quotes that you've quoted. Could you repost your point?

I'll answer my own question of Who gets to decide where the end of the umbrella for a religion is - naming names - and how do they enforce it?

1. Who gets to decide where the end of the umbrella term is? I do. I am also quite aware that no one else might draw the line quite there. There will be people who draw it farther out and others who will draw their line to eliminate everyone but their sect. My sect does not care where the line is for any umbrella term. People outside of the sect can call themselves anything they want.

2. How do I enforce my will on those people whose practices I have decided fall outside the umbrella term? I don't. They can call themselves anything they want. I will say "That's not what my tradition teaches." If they are interested in what my tradition teaches, they will ask. If they are serious about Wicca, they will read more books and find better teachers and learn more about Wicca without being attacked or called ugly names by me.

If they aren't serious about Wicca, they will find their way to a new religion, or back to their old religion, hopefully without thinking all Wiccans are jerks. I think goodwill is important.

My point (in the previous post) was that I did not use the terms as pejoratives when I used them, which you stated I did by stating I started "name calling".

Again I have no issue with umbrella terms having meaning beyond specific sects, but when there are defined meanings which the (majority) of a community has come to understand, does that not mean there is already a meaning which is accepted by a wider community and not just a specific sect? I do not think that simply because an individual likes the name of an existing community, but not what that name entails, they have the right to make use of the name and make it fit whatever they want it to.

My definition of what encompasses a CR is not only member of the Fálachus tradition so this is not sect bias, there are more CR's who are not members of that tradition than are, so the consensus of what CR means is coming from more than just this particular tradition. The CR wiki isn't a bad start, but better would be the CRFAQ, a source which is accepted more or less across the CR board as fairly authoritative, as creating a core of what CR encompasses. http://www.paganachd.com/faq/intro.html

To your second point, aside from pointing out discrepancies where they occur, there isn't much anyone can do to make someone not use a term, but this does not mean that people should start calling themselves something because they like the sound of it, while ignoring what the term encompasses. Goodwill and civility are necessary, but so to is accurate information.

_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.

Coffee Three Shouts on a Hilltop
avatar
Gorm_Sionnach
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 838
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Toronto, ON, Canada.

http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 8:01 am

Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Dromahair on Sat May 30, 2009 8:57 am

Where did that last post go Gilly? The one that talked about how the individual had NO POWER to affect change? It was here just a second ago but now it seems to have vanished, which is a shame because it was an awesome argument.

Same one I hear from folks who can't be bothered to vote.
Same one I hear from folks who'd just rather get through the day than make sure their brothers are being treated fairly or humanely. Truly a great argument the powerless of the individual. I'm sorry we won't get to actually talk about it since I guess you didn't 'officially' use it.

I rather go down fighting for a 'right' than accept a wrong for the sake of "not looking bad".

Sheesh!
avatar
Dromahair

Posts : 38
Join date : 2009-04-26
Location : Fort Worth

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 9:08 am

I thought better about it. I do have power and small that it is, I choose to use it to better things rather than make it worse, and in my opinion that post would make it worse.

You can talk about it. Please tell me how much power you have and how you have affected the others around you to force them to do your will. How do they feel about that?

What is "right"? Anything you believe? And if other people believe something different?

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 9:22 am

I would be very interested in hearing any stories by the way from someone who ran across another person who claimed to be a member of an umbrella term - Pagan, for example - and what steps you took to force them to change what they called themselves. Were you successful? What were the ramifications?

Equally, why don't we talk about any instances where that happened to us. What did you do? How did you feel about that person/group afterwards?

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 9:46 am

If I may please? People don't understand their impact!
A true story, by Dee!
Once upon a time, was a small church nestled within a small town. The people that belonged to the church were the "religious minority" within the town also! But every Thanksgiving the small church, out did itself with helping the large numbers of hungry & poor lvining in the small town ! Infact every month it helped the community with its small food bank!
One summers eve, the tiny church received a new leader. He was foreign, and looked different, and really his speech wasn't American. Soon the church people split hairs about accepting this new leader. Some accepted him, but the most of them didn't because he didn't look, act, or speak exactly like them. Gossip was spread, and hateful remarks were heard from the members of the church council, which spread not only within the small church, but even spilled over into the small town. The townspeople cast a judgemental and wary eye upon the new leader of the small church and took up sides. Summer past uneventfully into fall. Time came for back to school, and people came back from enjoying summer vacation. Registering their children back into all the churches for studies, activities, and fellowship. But fewer people attended the small church. The new leader made some changes within the church, not the substance of the services, but finanacial changes. The church had to shut off some lights, and services were cut back to 3X a week @ 6PM. The 3 services on Sunday were cut down to 2. Again the church council, reared their heads, and again the gossip and name calling started again. Some of church members were heard calling racial slurs, ethnic slurs, and there was even a threat upon the new church leaders life.
Fall approached rapidly, pre preparations were started for the great Thanksgiving feast that the church prided itself on. Low and behold the new church leader had to give his ok on the plans and the management of the great Thanksgiving feast. The finances were low, so he turned down the outlandish feast, and suggested other ways to help the hungry and the poor of the small town. The new suggestions fell upon deaf ears. It wasn't American, he wasn't American. Thanksgiving would have a different face toward the community, he had a different face also. The small church fed the hungry and the poor of the small town, but the turkeys, the fixins, were fewer, and not all the poor or hungry were fed.
By Christmas the small church had hardly no attendence within its doors. Some of the past members that had left yrs before started coming back, they too had been judged back in the day, because of their differences, native/state origins, skin color, non American accent, or cultural misunderstanding.
The little church started to thrive again slowly but surely. By Easter of the following yr. the little church thrived and attendance was out the door! The people that attended the small church were not only the religious mininority, but the ethnic minorities of the small town, they were the poor and the hungry of the community.
The little church put on a big birthday celebration around May, the whole town community was invited and attended in break neck numbers. What a party, and the people of the small church were friendly and happy, and caring, and accepted everyone that came to the party. For the 1st time in that small church and in that small town, were heartfelt activities, and true fellowship, happiness and friendship went hand in hand!
avatar
Willowcreek70633
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 816
Join date : 2009-05-28
Location : SWLA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 9:59 am

gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.

Coffee Three Shouts on a Hilltop
avatar
Gorm_Sionnach
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 838
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Toronto, ON, Canada.

http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 9:59 am

BTW, I was one of the ones who accepted the new leader, I explained to my children that he had went to school, and his actions were true to his teachings.
When the slurs, hatred, and threat upon his life started I took my children out of the churchs activities, and studies, and reported these going ons to the head church leaders, in another town. My husband who has always been non=denominational joined me in my convictions to make it known that pure human evil was running amuck. The head church leaders moved the leader after the May celebration to another town, and replaced him with a more American, look like us, talk like us, leader. This is when I left the religion (there were other times in my life also). As I said before on another post I am more Old Way, and Spiritual, then "religious as the masses."
avatar
Willowcreek70633
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 816
Join date : 2009-05-28
Location : SWLA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 12:47 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

I have run into people in my area who still call African Americans "the coloreds" and if you talk to them about it, they say that it is a perfectly good term and they aren't going to stop using it just because some "coloreds" don't like it. Do you think that the people should honor what the African Americans want to be called or not?

The person you said used the term and so it's okay isn't a Wiccan. She's a Dianic and she calls herself a NeoPagan. If a person calls themselves "queer" or "colored" or NeoPagan then it is perfectly alright (sometimes!) to call them that too. If however they call themselves "gay" or Pagan, then you should probably honor them by using the terms they use.

The meaning for sects comes from the people who make up that sect. The meaning for religious umbrella terms very often is decided by people outside that religion. They tend to lump all followers of Jesus together for example, or all followers of Buddha together or all of the polytheist religions that have sprung from a European base together. It's the ones who are under the umbrella who want to make the distinctions.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 12:51 pm

Willowcreek70633 wrote:BTW, I was one of the ones who accepted the new leader, I explained to my children that he had went to school, and his actions were true to his teachings.
When the slurs, hatred, and threat upon his life started I took my children out of the churchs activities, and studies, and reported these going ons to the head church leaders, in another town. My husband who has always been non=denominational joined me in my convictions to make it known that pure human evil was running amuck. The head church leaders moved the leader after the May celebration to another town, and replaced him with a more American, look like us, talk like us, leader. This is when I left the religion (there were other times in my life also). As I said before on another post I am more Old Way, and Spiritual, then "religious as the masses."

Religious infighting can destroy a sect so quickly and drive people from the religion itself. I'm sorry that you had that experience.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 1:04 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

I have run into people in my area who still call African Americans "the coloreds" and if you talk to them about it, they say that it is a perfectly good term and they aren't going to stop using it just because some "coloreds" don't like it. Do you think that the people should honor what the African Americans want to be called or not?

The person you said used the term and so it's okay isn't a Wiccan. She's a Dianic and she calls herself a NeoPagan. If a person calls themselves "queer" or "colored" or NeoPagan then it is perfectly alright (sometimes!) to call them that too. If however they call themselves "gay" or Pagan, then you should probably honor them by using the terms they use.

The meaning for sects comes from the people who make up that sect. The meaning for religious umbrella terms very often is decided by people outside that religion. They tend to lump all followers of Jesus together for example, or all followers of Buddha together or all of the polytheist religions that have sprung from a European base together. It's the ones who are under the umbrella who want to make the distinctions.

Ah ha, good point. As we all know, I'm not a politically correct person. We recently hired our first black employee ever and I had to sit her down and explain that as a non-politically correct person she'd have to overlook it if something slipped out, as it wouldn't be meant as a personal attack - it's just my way of speech. Her response was "I call more people nigger in a day than you prolly do!" We cracked up and s far we get along famously. She has a great sense of humor and we're able to toss around 'nigger', 'cracker', 'honkey', 'whitey', etc. like always and she fits right in. (Ironically, she doesn't like 'colored', because it's on the birth certificate of some of her friends. My family uses that as a nicer alternative but it's not one I generally say.) There are, of course, some black or white people who put a lot of personal energy in decrying such words as horrid and spend their days and emotions wrapped up in whether a label is nice enough or not. Point is, different words mean different things to different people. You can 'ma'am' someone and make it sound like a real f- you (as those of us in customer service know Very Happy ). Intent is a real important factor, ya?

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 1:22 pm

It sure is!

I'm sorry that happened to your church, TED, by the way. It is such a shame. I've seen local churches go under because of infighting. I have the records from a church that was 140 years old and fell apart with everyone resigning but I didn't realize that it happened on a national level to y'all.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum