Gods and Goddesses

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 10:07 pm

gillyflower wrote:

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

Quoted because it is the important bit.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 10:24 pm

I would not Call CR an umbrella term the community is simply not that broad is all.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 10:25 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I would not Call CR an umbrella term the community is simply not that broad is all.

It covers more than one sect, yes?
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 10:51 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I would not Call CR an umbrella term the community is simply not that broad is all.

It covers more than one sect, yes?

Sect is a bit... tradition I think would be a better term. I would say that CR is not an umbrella term because it does hase a foundational framework, whereas Paganism does not...

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 10:52 pm

Wicca has a foundational framework and it is still an umbrella term just as is CR.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 10:53 pm

gillyflower wrote:All I keep repeating is that no one here can force anyone else to accept their definition for a religion or stop others from saying - and believing! - that they are very worthy members of the religion. Trying to kick people out from under an umbrella term like Pagan, Wicca, CR or Christianity is a losing battle.

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

I suppose the question then would be, why would someone within a tradition care what someone outside of that tradition quantifies as stupid, hair splitting is the difference between fact and fiction in many cases, consider the historic nature of reconstructionism in general, the specifics are quite important.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 10:56 pm

gillyflower wrote:Wicca has a foundational framework and it is still an umbrella term just as is CR.

In your opinion.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 10:57 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I would not Call CR an umbrella term the community is simply not that broad is all.

It covers more than one sect, yes?

Sect is a bit... tradition I think would be a better term. I would say that CR is not an umbrella term because it does hase a foundational framework, whereas Paganism does not...

What is the problem with the word sect?
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 10:58 pm

I lost half of my post. I'll just add to it and say that Wikipedia says there are numerous CR groups. It is an umbrella term at least according to the other groups that don't claim to be the only one.

If you don't care about your reputation or the reputation of the group you belong to, go right ahead with the name calling.


Last edited by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 10:59 pm

gillyflower wrote:I lost half of my post. I'll just add to it and say that Wikipedia says there are numerous CR groups. It is an umbrella term.

If you don't care about your reputation or the reputation of the group you belong to, go right ahead with the name calling.

When did I make with the name calling? Shocked

When you were calling people NeoPagans and Wiccanesque and NeoCelts.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 11:02 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I would not Call CR an umbrella term the community is simply not that broad is all.

It covers more than one sect, yes?

Sect is a bit... tradition I think would be a better term. I would say that CR is not an umbrella term because it does hase a foundational framework, whereas Paganism does not...

What is the problem with the word sect?

Your right, sect is a fine term.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 11:03 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I lost half of my post. I'll just add to it and say that Wikipedia says there are numerous CR groups. It is an umbrella term.

If you don't care about your reputation or the reputation of the group you belong to, go right ahead with the name calling.

When did I make with the name calling? Shocked

Or are you referring to the not caring about outsider (general, I'm not implying you when I say outsider in case it came out that way) opinions?

As a general rule, I prefer not to look like a jerk to outsiders, which is why I tend to avoid in-group fighting and name calling when I can. Not to mention the phrase "that person is not really _______," doesn't really address the problem that usually needs addressing.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 11:07 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I lost half of my post. I'll just add to it and say that Wikipedia says there are numerous CR groups. It is an umbrella term.

If you don't care about your reputation or the reputation of the group you belong to, go right ahead with the name calling.

When did I make with the name calling? Shocked

Or are you referring to the not caring about outsider (general, I'm not implying you when I say outsider in case it came out that way) opinions?

As a general rule, I prefer not to look like a jerk to outsiders, which is why I tend to avoid in-group fighting and name calling when I can. Not to mention the phrase "that person is not really _______," doesn't really address the problem that usually needs addressing.

There is a difference between "No True Scotsman" and factual correctness. I'll agree that needless infighting is pointless, but is quibbling over differences which either side thinks matter necessarily splitting hairs? In this context, the details matter.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 11:14 pm

Some details matter, some details don't matter. In this context we don't know what any of those details are so really none of them matter and we don't know what is a fact and what fact is going to change next year. Even if they are explained to outsiders, the outsiders still won't understand why it matters. All the outsider sees, is a person or group who is nasty to others.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 11:21 pm

gillyflower wrote:Some details matter, some details don't matter. In this context we don't know what any of those details are so really none of them matter and we don't know what is a fact and what fact is going to change next year. Even if they are explained to outsiders, the outsiders still won't understand why it matters. All the outsider sees, is a person or group who is nasty to others.

Right but look at it this way, would you call two historians debating something which to outsiders would seem a minute detail splitting hairs? What seems pointless or anal to someone on the outside can be rather important within the context of the discussion. Facts don't really change, interpretations of those facts do. This does not preclude that we should just thrown out everything we understand today because down the road it might change, if that were the case Historians would have given up long ago.

I suppose in terms of outside looking in, public debate forums probably not the best place to do it. Wink

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 28, 2009 7:22 am

Exactly. Also one can debate an inhouse religious issue without trying to oust the other person from under a religious umbrella. Be protective of your particular sect but being protective of an umbrella term is counterproductive, in my opinion. That doesn't work.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Dromahair on Thu May 28, 2009 11:02 am

Oh good grief - are we on this again? The return of the crusade to make all language meaningless by saying anyone can call themselves anything and no one is allowed to say "boo" because we might stomp on their precious feelings?

Someone who is not an electrician may feel compelled to call themselves an electrician but when they burn down your house because they don't know jack about wiring they hurt both you and the reputation of ALL the actual electricians out there. It's important to look for a REAL electrician, indeed to accept the fact that there are REAL electricians and that not everyone who claims to be IS or should be ACCEPTED as such.

Words have meanings. It's not a matter of opinion.

I'm not even sure what the issue is with infighting. "It looks bad." Are we in a popularity contest or something? Who are we trying to impress?
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu May 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Recons vs Eclectics, what you gonna do?

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 28, 2009 5:44 pm

Dromahair wrote:Oh good grief - are we on this again? The return of the crusade to make all language meaningless by saying anyone can call themselves anything and no one is allowed to say "boo" because we might stomp on their precious feelings?

Someone who is not an electrician may feel compelled to call themselves an electrician but when they burn down your house because they don't know jack about wiring they hurt both you and the reputation of ALL the actual electricians out there. It's important to look for a REAL electrician, indeed to accept the fact that there are REAL electricians and that not everyone who claims to be IS or should be ACCEPTED as such.

Words have meanings. It's not a matter of opinion.

I'm not even sure what the issue is with infighting. "It looks bad." Are we in a popularity contest or something? Who are we trying to impress?

So you are saying that a member of a religion can burn down your house if he isn't in a "real" denomination in a "real" religion? Are you suggesting that unless a person is licensed to practice their "real" religion by the state that they shouldn't be able to call themselves a member of that religion? *rolling eyes*

Words have meaning to you and me. Yippee!!!! And your point is? They go to jail if they use the word differently than you do? You shoot them if they don't practice their religion the way you want them to?

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 28, 2009 6:11 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Recons vs Eclectics, what you gonna do?

I think that is the Wiccans vs. the Electricians. Do you guys learn that in Recon school?

Actually I am a member of two Eclectic Wiccan traditions. We are rightly named eclectic because we know the traditional beginning of Wicca and we have chosen to change our emphasis of certain practices because it works better for us and it makes sense to us. We know what we have changed and why. One of the eclectic traditions that I belong to is 40 years old. The other is only a year old. A teaching moment. Smile

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by John T Mainer on Thu May 28, 2009 7:17 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Dromahair wrote:Oh good grief - are we on this again? The return of the crusade to make all language meaningless by saying anyone can call themselves anything and no one is allowed to say "boo" because we might stomp on their precious feelings?

Someone who is not an electrician may feel compelled to call themselves an electrician but when they burn down your house because they don't know jack about wiring they hurt both you and the reputation of ALL the actual electricians out there. It's important to look for a REAL electrician, indeed to accept the fact that there are REAL electricians and that not everyone who claims to be IS or should be ACCEPTED as such.

Words have meanings. It's not a matter of opinion.

I'm not even sure what the issue is with infighting. "It looks bad." Are we in a popularity contest or something? Who are we trying to impress?

So you are saying that a member of a religion can burn down your house if he isn't in a "real" denomination in a "real" religion? Are you suggesting that unless a person is licensed to practice their "real" religion by the state that they shouldn't be able to call themselves a member of that religion? *rolling eyes*

Words have meaning to you and me. Yippee!!!! And your point is? They go to jail if they use the word differently than you do? You shoot them if they don't practice their religion the way you want them to?

Well I think the prisons are overcrowded already, and the second solution sounds a bit extreme, but it does follow the accepted practice of religious debate throughout most of the world. I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but if you think it wise, then I guess I'll have to switch to bulk ammunition sourcing again to keep costs down. jocolor Just kidding.

In all seriousness, if you follow a strict and defined set of practices that the community understands and accepts as the requirements of being a (pick a group), and somebody comes along who adheres to almost none of the restrictions, follows few of the practices, and adds in large amounts or foreign, and even some fictitious material, and claims to be a (same group), you really do feel compelled to make it absolutely clear that they are not one of (your group). I am not a Christian, but I accept that if someone doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was sent by Yaweh to bring a new covenant, and died for the sins of his flock, then you are not actually a Christian. It really is possible to say that some terms really do have defined limitations that if you move beyond, will no longer cover you.

I would not think you Heathen or Odinist if you believed that you needed to be "saved" like a Christian, nor if you believed that "Do as you wilt is the whole of the law". I don't judge either Christians nor Crowley's followers as anything than not Heathen. I leave them to their practice, and expect them to leave me to mine. There is absolutely no doubt they are different practices. The words do matter. Ten dollars and two dollars are not just different ways of saying the same thing, they have quite definite and different definitions. They are not interchangable. Neither are the definitions of faiths infinitly flexible and interchangable.

That is just the truth as I see it. Others may dissagree, and they are certainly free to. I will continue to believe that the many of the terms do have knowable and definable limits.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 28, 2009 7:51 pm

I just don't think that ANYONE reads the threads. Smile

John, you have every right to control what is practiced, taught and believed within your own group. That is doable. That is not what this conversation is about. If indeed someone comes along and joins your group and teaches stuff you don't like or agree with, you really should kick him or her out or, if the others back that person, you should find a new group.

If someone comes along and claims to be part of your umbrella group and you disagree with the practices or anything else, you have every right to disagree and tell others that is not what your group is about and you can also spout your beliefs about where they are wrong. I believe that you will agree that, especially if that person lives on the other side of the country or in a different country, you are not going to be able to stop him or her from calling themselves a (fill in the blank umbrella term)? Even if you disagree with them? You won't be able to stop other people from joining that persons group and enjoying it? Or stop them from continuing to prosper and attract new adherents for many, many years?

The question that was posed was do you act like an asshole to people who disagree with you about your religion? Do you attack them in public forums? Do you act like the Evangelicals act towards Catholics and Mormons and try to kick them out of the umbrella group. I posted this earlier and it sums up my feelings about doing that:

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

About your Christian post. I really have NEVER quizzed a Christian (or anyone except those who wanted to join my traditions) about what they believe before I accept that they are Christian or accept that they believe that they are Christian. I could care less if other people within a religion do or do not believe that they are Christian. I am not going to back any of the Christian sects that want to eject the other Christian sects because they aren't Christian enough. I am not going to back any CRs who want to eject other CRs from calling themselves CRs. Those are not my fights and frankly they look pretty silly to me.

I believe that terms and words have meaning too by the way. I get mine from the dictionary quite often. I don't see how acting like an ass to other people has anything to do with that.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu May 28, 2009 8:34 pm

Okay - so - What we need to focus on here is that there is the umbrella term and the sect term. Those under the umbrella term have every right to say someone does not follow/belong to their sect, but they cannot try to 'kick' someone out from under the umbrella term if that's what the person claims they adhere to be.

I think the problem is the confusion of umbrella labels with sect labels, and many people believe their sect is an umbrella.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by John T Mainer on Thu May 28, 2009 8:43 pm

Very cogently put Tiger. I agree sects are quite specific, and umbrellas by their nature are not.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

As far as CR goes, yes it is an umbrella term but as far as umbrella's go its relatively small, when compared to Christianity, Paganism and even Wicca. There is a foundational framework, in which eclecticism is understood to be problematic, the source of information is the historic record and existing Celtic cultures. The original intent of the founders, or to be specific the person who coined the phrase, was trying to establish a religious (cultural) framework (which has expanded to encompass a number of different groups) where the textual and historic evidence was of central importance and was based in fact as opposed to mere opinion. This is generally understood by those who call themselves CR's, and I do have an issue with people who suddenly decide that they want to be CR's and decide that that means they can be eclectic, syncretic and try and co-opt the term to suit their own needs.

Why call oneself a CR if you're going to ignore what it is which makes it CR? Why use a term which already has an understood meaning, and not simply develop one for yourself? Why should I recognize someone as a CR when they are neither Reconstructionist's nor focusing on Celtic culture? I've never been a fan of people saying they are something and acting contrary to what they claim to be. I'll debate with someone the finer points of the methodology and what Celtic Culture encompasses, but there has to be a basic meaning for a term to convey any sort of coherence.

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