Gods and Goddesses

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 10:36 am

I hate to contradict you but I will. Smile

It is easy for you to say that they are wrong but them accepting it? You can't make them. You cannot make a person stop calling themselves CR or claiming that they are right and you are wrong, or just plain ignoring you. You say "we" but who you mean are the people who agree with you, right?

I've heard the "established base" as opposed to "self defined" before. It of course is a big put down of Gardner who started Wicca and defined it. The problem is that everyone interprets Gardner's intent differently. Some think that Wicca should never change, or only change in a limited way or change a lot - and I bet you get the very same arguments within your reconstructive circles. How much change is too much? What is most important.

Ed to add: This link to someone who discusses this problem in Celtic Reconstructionism:

http://www.pathofeire.org/Celtic_Reconstructionism.php

But it really does come down to the simple fact that you cannot control other people's interpretation of a religion. Gods, know that the Christians have tried that and failed.


Last edited by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed May 27, 2009 10:59 am

This is quite interesting, because it's very "Roman Catholic Church" versus Mormons, Christian Scientists, etc...just with the Pagan labels. We all do it in our own faiths I guess; which is why we adhere to our particular denominations above others.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 11:09 am

Exactly! Inhouse fights are the nastiest. And it is a losing proposition as the Catholics can attest. They were unable to remain the divining authority in Christianity.

Another problem is that the group that attacks the other groups and tries to eject them from the religion is very often the one that ends up with the bad reputation as the crazies. This is especially true for the opinion of people outside the religion. (I point to the Evangelicals attempts to oust the Catholics and Mormons from Christianity. Who do you think is the crazy one?)

It is much easier to remain in control of a tradition/denomination/sect. That is doable. The dictating to the other people who decide they fall under the umbrella term? Not so much.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 11:41 am

gillyflower wrote:I hate to contradict you but I will. Smile

It is easy for you to say that they are wrong but them accepting it? You can't make them. You cannot make a person stop calling themselves CR or claiming that they are right and you are wrong, or just plain ignoring you. You say "we" but who you mean are the people who agree with you, right?

I've heard the "established base" as opposed to "self defined" before. It of course is a big put down of Gardner who started Wicca and defined it. The problem is that everyone interprets Gardner's intent differently. Some think that Wicca should never change, or only change in a limited way or change a lot - and I bet you get the very same arguments within your reconstructive circles. How much change is too much? What is most important.

Ed to add: This link to someone who discusses this problem in Celtic Reconstructionism:

http://www.pathofeire.org/Celtic_Reconstructionism.php

But it really does come down to the simple fact that you cannot control other people's interpretation of a religion. Gods, know that the Christians have tried that and failed.

Again, and I believe the article does make the case, CR is not a religion per se (whereas I point out that Fálachus is), but rather a methodology. I agree with much of what is written, I tend towards the same kind of conservatism and orthopraxy. Again, where I would call out and tel someone what they are doing is not CR, is when it is contradicted by what we know from the historic sources. Of course one can not control any one elses opinion or self definition, but it is also a two way street. If one seeks membership with a particular group, one needs to be accepted by that group to claim membership.

CR is not monolithic by any stretch of the imagination and is largely still in its developmental phase, but there are guidelines and a methodological framework from which there is an established base that says opinion A is correct from a CR context, and opinion B is incorrect.

But I agree, council can be given but not conduct.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 11:48 am

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:I hate to contradict you but I will. Smile

It is easy for you to say that they are wrong but them accepting it? You can't make them. You cannot make a person stop calling themselves CR or claiming that they are right and you are wrong, or just plain ignoring you. You say "we" but who you mean are the people who agree with you, right?

I've heard the "established base" as opposed to "self defined" before. It of course is a big put down of Gardner who started Wicca and defined it. The problem is that everyone interprets Gardner's intent differently. Some think that Wicca should never change, or only change in a limited way or change a lot - and I bet you get the very same arguments within your reconstructive circles. How much change is too much? What is most important.

Ed to add: This link to someone who discusses this problem in Celtic Reconstructionism:

http://www.pathofeire.org/Celtic_Reconstructionism.php

But it really does come down to the simple fact that you cannot control other people's interpretation of a religion. Gods, know that the Christians have tried that and failed.

Again, and I believe the article does make the case, CR is not an individual religion per se (whereas I point out that Fálachus is), but rather a methodology. I agree with much of what is written, I tend towards the same kind of conservatism and orthopraxy. Again, where I would call out and tell someone what they are doing is not CR, is when it is contradicted by what we know from the historic sources. Of course one can not control any one elses opinion or self definition, but it is also a two way street. If one seeks membership with a particular group, one needs to be accepted by that group to claim membership. If someone calls oneself a CR, but decides that the Welsh worshiped Zeus, so they will too, it is simply a factual error, and they should be called on it. They do not have to acknowledge they are wrong, but then by that logic anyone and everything could be whatever anyone wanted it to be. Definition becomes impossible.

CR is not monolithic by any stretch of the imagination and is largely still in its developmental phase, but there are guidelines and a methodological framework from which there is an established base that says opinion A is correct from a CR context, and opinion B is incorrect.

But I agree, council can be given but not conduct.

I hit quote instead of edit... Some one mind deleting the previous post?

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 11:57 am

It is the "particular group" where there is some control over how things are interpreted or practiced or defined.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 12:25 pm

Yes, and since CR has a particular methodology and basic framework, there are things which you can objectively state are and are not CRP. I gave a basic example (with Zeus) but it is not the sort of thing which causes discussions and disagreements amongst the community, as it is rather apparent. What tends to create disagreement is the extent of reconstruction, issues of appropriation, gender roles, perceived difficulty and a patchwork of sources from which to work. There are some things which are more or less understood to be antithetical to a CRP world view; eclecticism and syncreticism being the most common aspects CR's tend to reject.

A Celtic Wiccan for example, is not a CR, no mater how much they claim to be. This does not mean that people can not (or should not) be Celtic Wiccans, or that I personally harbor any ill will towards them. But they are not CR's, just like I am not Wiccan.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 12:38 pm

In your opinion. Always add that, Gorm, because it is only your opinion. In the opinion of the person themselves and perhaps others in their group they ARE CR and they may never change their minds on that. They can and will go around in public saying that they are CRs, go on forums and say they are CRs and people outside of the religion will say that they are CRs. A hundred years from now they may be a majority too. Or not.

You saying that they are not does not change anything or make me believe that they are not as much a CR as you are. Ed. to add, that is not a personal slam - what I mean is that you can state your opinion but that is all it will be and other people will go right on considering them CR. Or if we were talking about me, Wicca. That's because it is an inhouse fight.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 1:10 pm

gillyflower wrote:In your opinion. Always add that, Gorm, because it is only your opinion. In the opinion of the person themselves and perhaps others in their group they ARE CR and they may never change their minds on that. They can and will go around in public saying that they are CRs, go on forums and say they are CRs and people outside of the religion will say that they are CRs. A hundred years from now they may be a majority too. Or not.

You saying that they are not does not change anything or make me believe that they are not as much a CR as you are. Ed. to add, that is not a personal slam - what I mean is that you can state your opinion but that is all it will be and other people will go right on considering them CR. Or if we were talking about me, Wicca. That's because it is an inhouse fight.

Calling oneself an electrician does not make you one, when there are defined guidelines which explains what something is, what is beyond those guidelines are not that. I agree in terms of subjectivity all opinions are equal, but when there is an objective way of determing what something is, that is the way one quantifies a definition. Not everything is self defined, imo.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 3:40 pm

I'd add that that for someone to call themselves a CR (imo) they need to do at least two things.

1. Employ a reconstructionist methodology to ones study and practice.

2. The focus of the reconstruction is pre-Christian Celtic culture. (which is going to vary depending on the region of focus)

Both of these elements are inherent in calling oneself a Celtic Reconstructionist, if both are not present then it makes no sense to call oneself a CR. It would be as sensible as an atheist who believed in Gods, or a polytheist who believed that only one God exists.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 4:26 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:In your opinion. Always add that, Gorm, because it is only your opinion. In the opinion of the person themselves and perhaps others in their group they ARE CR and they may never change their minds on that. They can and will go around in public saying that they are CRs, go on forums and say they are CRs and people outside of the religion will say that they are CRs. A hundred years from now they may be a majority too. Or not.

You saying that they are not does not change anything or make me believe that they are not as much a CR as you are. Ed. to add, that is not a personal slam - what I mean is that you can state your opinion but that is all it will be and other people will go right on considering them CR. Or if we were talking about me, Wicca. That's because it is an inhouse fight.

Calling oneself an electrician does not make you one, when there are defined guidelines which explains what something is, what is beyond those guidelines are not that. I agree in terms of subjectivity all opinions are equal, but when there is an objective way of determing what something is, that is the way one quantifies a definition. Not everything is self defined, imo.

Calling oneself an electrician might make you one even when there are people who say they are not. There really is no way to determine what something is if you don't accept ONE tradition's definition.

Not everything is self defined, in your opinion, but whether or not one is of a certain tradition is decided only by the tradition involved. That tradition does not get to decided for everyone who is not in the tradition/denomination or kick anyone out of the wider religion.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 4:27 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I'd add that that for someone to call themselves a CR (imo) they need to do at least two things.

1. Employ a reconstructionist methodology to ones study and practice.

2. The focus of the reconstruction is pre-Christian Celtic culture. (which is going to vary depending on the region of focus)

Both of these elements are inherent in calling oneself a Celtic Reconstructionist, if both are not present then it makes no sense to call oneself a CR. It would be as sensible as an atheist who believed in Gods, or a polytheist who believed that only one God exists.

In your opinion, I'm sure that's true. Someone else might have different criteria and belong to a different tradition.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 6:07 pm

I am feeling a quote coming on:


Calling oneself ‘Witch’ does not make a
Witch – but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles,
degrees and initiations.

— 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief.

It is never as simple as folks would have it.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 9:13 pm

It has less to do with a traditional basis, and everything to do with a basic definition inherent in the name of CR. To be a Celtic Reconstructionist one must be focusing on Celtic cultures with a Reconstructionist methodology, one can not be a Celtic Recon while focusing on Greek culture, it is a logical fallacy.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 9:33 pm

In your opinion. Smile

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 9:42 pm

Like in my opinion 2+2=4? Smile

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed May 27, 2009 9:43 pm

You two are killin' me Hysterical

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 9:44 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:It has less to do with a traditional basis, and everything to do with a basic definition inherent in the name of CR. To be a Celtic Reconstructionist one must be focusing on Celtic cultures with a Reconstructionist methodology, one can not be a Celtic Recon while focusing on Greek culture, it is a logical fallacy.

On the other hand. Some one can reconstruct the Celtic religion and come to completely different conclusions than you. Doesn't make them any less a reconstructionist of the Celtic persuasion.

















And on rare occasions, 2+2= 5.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed May 27, 2009 9:50 pm

I think I'm going to agree with Gorm in the since that the name "Celtic Reconstructionist" involves someone interested in "reconstructing the Celtic faith". That is, by default, it's definition; like Christianity is a religion that "has to do with the worship of, or interest in, the teachings of Christ". However, I think what Gilly is getting at is right; anyone can claim to be a Celtic Reconstructionist no matter how little or much effort they put into actually reconstructing the Celtic faith; as Mormons, UUs, Catholics and Evangelists can claim to be Christian no matter how little or much interest in Christ the individual has.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed May 27, 2009 9:52 pm

To add: Or, as SG said, come to totally different terms with what it means. Like, Unitarian Universalists, Baptists and Catholics have totally different understandings of the Christian faith, yet of course individuals in all three groups consider themselves to have the "right" path/understanding/interpretation, because, as the Baptists, Catholics and UUs will tell you, their faith is just as Jesus wants it to be.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed May 27, 2009 9:55 pm

[quote=]On the other hand. Some one can reconstruct the Celtic religion and come to completely different conclusions than you. Doesn't make them any less a reconstructionist of the Celtic persuasion.[/quote]

Absolutely, but that isn't what I was debating. I was merely pointing out that there IS a basic definition of what CR is, you can of course quibble over interpretation of sources and UPG and the like...

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 9:56 pm

I would have agreed with Gorm too if he hadn't tacked on "one must be focusing on Celtic cultures with a Reconstructionist methodology" because then you start arguing over just what is a "Reconstructionist methodology" and I bet there will be some disagreement over that.

But didn't anyone study Celtic culture here and realize the Celts were all over the place?


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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed May 27, 2009 9:58 pm

I really wasn't agreeing with either Gorm or Gilly. I was suggesting a middle road.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed May 27, 2009 10:05 pm

Sure - See, I could be a Celtic Reconstructionist because I worship a Celtic deity and attempt to recreate the worship ritual in the same manner as my ancestors. Different definition of reconstructing.

Ah yes, those Gauls.. they were a roving bunch. My interests lie in Ireland, personally, and while I try to say "Irish" I tend to use "Celtic" interchangeably out of habit due to our society.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Wed May 27, 2009 10:05 pm

All I keep repeating is that no one here can force anyone else to accept their definition for a religion or stop others from saying - and believing! - that they are very worthy members of the religion. Trying to kick people out from under an umbrella term like Pagan, Wicca, CR or Christianity is a losing battle.

Plus the inhouse fighting and name calling looks stupid to people outside of the religion who don't care about the hairs that are being split.

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