Gods and Goddesses

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 1:27 pm

Thanks Gilly - I'm very used to that as I grew up Baptist (our church, 100 years old last year, was a split from another church 120 years ago, which was a split from another church before that). However, I was very interested in what happened to the DS church, and would you know that NOBODY has what happened online, except that they suddenly went from being huge to practically non-existent. I finally found a man who explained what happened to me, and apparently nobody likes to talk about it. I've been a DS student by distance and books for years but the nearest church is in Washington DC and I've never been. The point of the church was to have a higher consciousness, and get beyond things like that, but I guess in the end people's egos win, and with that everyone loses.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Oh, here's something that might give you a chuckle - the first thing the new hire heard me say was that I was from the projects and was about to throw little miss white thang (a snooty customer) headfirst through the window. I know she wondered what she got herself into! Laughing

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat May 30, 2009 1:46 pm

off topic, but you very scary sometimes Tiger affraid LMAO!

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 2:45 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

I have run into people in my area who still call African Americans "the coloreds" and if you talk to them about it, they say that it is a perfectly good term and they aren't going to stop using it just because some "coloreds" don't like it. Do you think that the people should honor what the African Americans want to be called or not?

The person you said used the term and so it's okay isn't a Wiccan. She's a Dianic and she calls herself a NeoPagan. If a person calls themselves "queer" or "colored" or NeoPagan then it is perfectly alright (sometimes!) to call them that too. If however they call themselves "gay" or Pagan, then you should probably honor them by using the terms they use.

The meaning for sects comes from the people who make up that sect. The meaning for religious umbrella terms very often is decided by people outside that religion. They tend to lump all followers of Jesus together for example, or all followers of Buddha together or all of the polytheist religions that have sprung from a European base together. It's the ones who are under the umbrella who want to make the distinctions.

Apple and oranges; ethnic/racial epitets have an intrinsic meaning which is understood and used according to the context and are or are not pejoritives based on who is using the term. Wiccan is an umbrella term and according to your definition any one who decides to use the term is justified in doing so. As such stating that a term like neoWiccan is a pejoritive is inaccurate, because neoWiccan is as correct a term as Wiccan, because they are both umbrella terms, and have no meaning outside individual understanding. Not that I used the term as a pejoritive (from my perspective) but merely as a means of relating to a developmental history of the Wiccan religion as I understand it; I'll be sure to just say Wiccan in the future, since it is more easily understood and not likely to be seen as a pejoritive, though it very well may be.

As far as outsiders naming a community, frankly its poppycock. The people who developed the term CR, Wiccan, etc. were from within, and not from without those communities. They are the ones who decide what the term means, and not outsiders. What you are arguing is that essentially I can determine what Wicca is, and you can determine what CR is, but we can not decide for ourselves because we are in those communities?

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Dromahair on Sat May 30, 2009 2:55 pm

I know IRL more Wiccans who go by 'neo-pagan' than I know who don't.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 3:12 pm

That's fine. Call them what they want to be called.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 3:14 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:off topic, but you very scary sometimes Tiger affraid LMAO!

Oh I can be very frightening. Grr. Laughing

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 3:27 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

I have run into people in my area who still call African Americans "the coloreds" and if you talk to them about it, they say that it is a perfectly good term and they aren't going to stop using it just because some "coloreds" don't like it. Do you think that the people should honor what the African Americans want to be called or not?

The person you said used the term and so it's okay isn't a Wiccan. She's a Dianic and she calls herself a NeoPagan. If a person calls themselves "queer" or "colored" or NeoPagan then it is perfectly alright (sometimes!) to call them that too. If however they call themselves "gay" or Pagan, then you should probably honor them by using the terms they use.

The meaning for sects comes from the people who make up that sect. The meaning for religious umbrella terms very often is decided by people outside that religion. They tend to lump all followers of Jesus together for example, or all followers of Buddha together or all of the polytheist religions that have sprung from a European base together. It's the ones who are under the umbrella who want to make the distinctions.

Apple and oranges; ethnic/racial epitets have an intrinsic meaning which is understood and used according to the context and are or are not pejoritives based on who is using the term. Wiccan is an umbrella term and according to your definition any one who decides to use the term is justified in doing so. As such stating that a term like neoWiccan is a pejoritive is inaccurate, because neoWiccan is as correct a term as Wiccan, because they are both umbrella terms, and have no meaning outside individual understanding. Not that I used the term as a pejoritive (from my perspective) but merely as a means of relating to a developmental history of the Wiccan religion as I understand it; I'll be sure to just say Wiccan in the future, since it is more easily understood and not likely to be seen as a pejoritive, though it very well may be.

As far as outsiders naming a community, frankly its poppycock. The people who developed the term CR, Wiccan, etc. were from within, and not from without those communities. They are the ones who decide what the term means, and not outsiders. What you are arguing is that essentially I can determine what Wicca is, and you can determine what CR is, but we can not decide for ourselves because we are in those communities?

Okay what about this conversation?

One negro speaking: "Please call me a Black American but I don't want you to call that man over there a Black American because he isn't dark skinned enough. Call him something else!"

The other person speaking: "Call me a Black American! I may not be as dark skinned as he is but I have negro ancestry just like he does!"

Just saying you can control to some extent what people call you, if they respect your request, but that doesn't stretch to controlling what they call other people.

I don't think that sects own the umbrella term and they can't set what it means to the wider community. Consider this from Wikipedia:

There is dispute as to what actually constitutes Wicca. Initially, it referred to the lineage of one of Gardner's rivals, Charles Cardell,[4] although in the 1960s it began to refer instead only to lineages stemming from Gardner and operating as initiatory Mystery Priesthoods (such as Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca). These are now collectively known in North America as British Traditional Wicca.[5] A third usage, which has grown in popularity in recent years, and which was debatably the original usage,[6] considers Wicca to include other forms of Goddess-oriented neopagan witchcraft that are similar to but independent of that lineage, including Cochrane's Craft, Dianic Wicca and the 1734 Tradition; these are sometimes collectively termed Eclectic Wicca.[7][8][9]

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 3:39 pm

I never thought paganism could be more confusing than Christianity. Very Happy

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 3:48 pm

And compare it to the definition of Wicca from the American Heritage Dictionary which is what those people outside the religion are getting their definitions from:

Wic·ca (wk)
n.
1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 3:49 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I never thought paganism could be more confusing than Christianity. Very Happy

When I first found Paganism and Wicca I thought I was finding one big happy family. Ha!

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 4:32 pm

gillyflower! I'm happy that my church experience happened! Is was for the betterment of our family. It is not unfortunate at all! My children were very impressionable teens and preteens during that time. They understood that their father and I look at people "within" not outwardly by judging a book by its cover.
As I stated before the new leader was educated in his faith and his actions went hand in hand with his teachings! As parents, we weren't alone in teaching our children understanding, kindness, and acceptance. My now grown children continue to view all people by their outward actions connecting to their inward capabilities, not by their glitz and glimmer, or wallet size, ethnic, gender or religious affiliation. They know that they have their own convictions within their hearts, and their hearts lead them down their diverse/spiritual paths.

I understand the remarks made here, may it be Pagan, Wiccan, Witch, Fluffy Bunny, Gay, Men Hater, Lesbo, Queer, Honky, Nigger, Rag Head, Spec, Wop, Hunky, Chink, Injun, Mic, Frog, Yellow, 1/2 Breed, Redneck, Hillbilly, Trash, Yankee, Cowboy, City Slicker, Hic, Moron, Geek, Retarded, Bitch, Bastard, and the list goes on and on, for it is never ending. .... IMO George Carlin was one of the best comedians to to make us think, and make us laugh at our own human frailities, at each other and at ourselves!

I am from a generation of Making Sure WE were NOT politically correct. The establishment sucked big donkey balls, and the government hid things, and lied alot. As a United States, we aren't the best, because we are the most richest, nor the most industrialized. Being from the Northeast, and marrying a "southern boy" and living in the south for the past 30 plus years, complete with raising our children. Being from a big city, and moving to a small town. Being American, and living in Europe for awhile, visiting both Mexico, and Canada. After awhile before you go crazy... I decided that sometimes you just have to walk a mile in your brothers moccassins to see how others view you.
I don't go out and meet people to see if I can kill their spirit, but to connect with the spirit within, and find the sameness in us all! Respect of self and others brings out the diversity through thick and thin we may find ourselves calling each other friends.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 4:49 pm

Yeah! What Willow said. Esp. "I am from a generation of Making Sure WE were NOT politically correct. The establishment sucked big donkey balls, and the government hid things, and lied alot." Waving my little flag.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat May 30, 2009 5:03 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I never thought paganism could be more confusing than Christianity. Very Happy

Naive, aren't you? Wink
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 5:38 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I never thought paganism could be more confusing than Christianity. Very Happy

Naive, aren't you? Wink

I guess I am. Very Happy Any witchy-type activities I've done have been solitary and personal, I never really sought to join a coven or adhere to a certain group's label/title. I was naive about that with Buddhism too, when I joined Buddhism school I signed up with a Mahayana educational institution and didn't realize how political it would be.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat May 30, 2009 5:48 pm

(((((TED)))))
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 8:19 pm

Gods and Goddesses
TigersEyeDowsing on Mon May 25, 2009 8:25 pm

.So, over the years of talking to pagan folks here and there I've heard a lot about being chosen by various gods and goddesses and what that was like. I wasn't sure if I should put this under debate or learn-about so if you think it's in the wrong place please move it. What about folks who haven't been 'chosen' by a god or goddess? Can they still be Pagan? Can they be Pagan and follow no particular god, or can they 'pick' god(s) they like in their thoughts and devote themselves to them?
Getting back on to the discussion or debate 1st asked by TED!
So what about Pagans that haven't been chosen by a god/goddess? Are they Pagan? IMO....YES
Can they be Pagan and follow no particular god/goddess or can they pick god/goddess(s) they like in their thoughts and devote themselves to them? IMO....YES
I'd rather be like you TED, naive to the worlds ways concerning religons. Religion is man made for mans purposes. Its good to learn, and to experiment, get out and explore. Keep being surprised by people, it confirms that spirit resides in you, your heart hasn't hardened toward others.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat May 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Thanks for your answer, Willow! Smile I'm (by religion) a "New Thoughter", (Divine Science and Unity Church) but I've said to these folks for years I'm "pagan at heart". I don't have a personal god/ess, however, hence my question; I'm pantheist for lack of a better path. I don't have the personal gods but I believe the Divine is in - and is - everything.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 10:42 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Unfortunately, Gorm, you don't get to decide whether or not the terms you apply to other people are pejoratives. They do.

No the community hasn't come up with a meaning for the umbrella term. The different individuals and sects within it each have their own definition for what is acceptable to them. The majority may agree on certain things, differ on others and there will still be a sizable minority that disagrees with that. Therefore if one is looking for someone within that umbrella term to give them "permission" to come under it, it will be found. Likewise the the people who disagree with that have no power to evict them from under the umbrella as you rightly point out.

Thank you for listing your personal definition for where you draw your line for the CR umbrella. I will still go along with accepting that the person before me believes themselves to be whatever it is they call themselves. You understand that, right? It's an inhouse fight you are fighting and I don't care about the outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that various Pagan groups and indeed, groups that fall under the same umbrella can't get along? We've had several melt downs locally full of people who feel they are right and/or their group is "better" than the others. How can we start working together? Do you think you can work with people who disagree with you about your religion?

So people can arbitrarily decide that a word is a pejoritive if they feel it is and whomever makes use of a term which has a prescribed meaning is still insulting them regardless of the context they use the term with? Besides the point I've applied the term neoPagan to myself before so this isn't them over there vs me over here.

Of course the community has come up with what a term which they developed means, where does meaning for communities come from? People outside the community?

I have run into people in my area who still call African Americans "the coloreds" and if you talk to them about it, they say that it is a perfectly good term and they aren't going to stop using it just because some "coloreds" don't like it. Do you think that the people should honor what the African Americans want to be called or not?

The person you said used the term and so it's okay isn't a Wiccan. She's a Dianic and she calls herself a NeoPagan. If a person calls themselves "queer" or "colored" or NeoPagan then it is perfectly alright (sometimes!) to call them that too. If however they call themselves "gay" or Pagan, then you should probably honor them by using the terms they use.

The meaning for sects comes from the people who make up that sect. The meaning for religious umbrella terms very often is decided by people outside that religion. They tend to lump all followers of Jesus together for example, or all followers of Buddha together or all of the polytheist religions that have sprung from a European base together. It's the ones who are under the umbrella who want to make the distinctions.

Apple and oranges; ethnic/racial epitets have an intrinsic meaning which is understood and used according to the context and are or are not pejoritives based on who is using the term. Wiccan is an umbrella term and according to your definition any one who decides to use the term is justified in doing so. As such stating that a term like neoWiccan is a pejoritive is inaccurate, because neoWiccan is as correct a term as Wiccan, because they are both umbrella terms, and have no meaning outside individual understanding. Not that I used the term as a pejoritive (from my perspective) but merely as a means of relating to a developmental history of the Wiccan religion as I understand it; I'll be sure to just say Wiccan in the future, since it is more easily understood and not likely to be seen as a pejoritive, though it very well may be.

As far as outsiders naming a community, frankly its poppycock. The people who developed the term CR, Wiccan, etc. were from within, and not from without those communities. They are the ones who decide what the term means, and not outsiders. What you are arguing is that essentially I can determine what Wicca is, and you can determine what CR is, but we can not decide for ourselves because we are in those communities?

Okay what about this conversation?

One negro speaking: "Please call me a Black American but I don't want you to call that man over there a Black American because he isn't dark skinned enough. Call him something else!"

The other person speaking: "Call me a Black American! I may not be as dark skinned as he is but I have negro ancestry just like he does!"

Just saying you can control to some extent what people call you, if they respect your request, but that doesn't stretch to controlling what they call other people.

I don't think that sects own the umbrella term and they can't set what it means to the wider community. Consider this from Wikipedia:

There is dispute as to what actually constitutes Wicca. Initially, it referred to the lineage of one of Gardner's rivals, Charles Cardell,[4] although in the 1960s it began to refer instead only to lineages stemming from Gardner and operating as initiatory Mystery Priesthoods (such as Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca). These are now collectively known in North America as British Traditional Wicca.[5] A third usage, which has grown in popularity in recent years, and which was debatably the original usage,[6] considers Wicca to include other forms of Goddess-oriented neopagan witchcraft that are similar to but independent of that lineage, including Cochrane's Craft, Dianic Wicca and the 1734 Tradition; these are sometimes collectively termed Eclectic Wicca.[7][8][9]

This is a rather grasping at straws example, and quite arbitrary. You're comparing an ethnic/racial group to a religion, people choose religion, they can not choose their heritage (they can certainly choose what aspects of their heritage they embrace, but genes are genes.) It isn't a question of not being dark enough or having the right blood, its about a definition which is accepted pretty much across the board by a religious community which mostly due to accuracy (insomuch as there were different Celtic cultures) and geography (we're a minority (sect) in a minority(CR) in a minority (Recons) in a slightly larger minority (Paganism). CR hasn't yet fractured/branched off/etc. the way that Wicca has, mostly because it hasn't been around that long, while there are numerous sects (like the ones listed on wikipedia) they at least all share the commonalities of being Celtic Focused, and utilizing a Recon methodology. Perhaps in time and an explosion of books and CR may follow a similar model and become too large to maintain a narrower definition, but right now there is a definition and it has a meaning, and that basic meaning is understood (and accepted) by the community. Drom and I are but two examples.

As an example the reason one can separate a community like neo-Druidism (not a pejoritive btw, its used to distinguish it from the Druidic revival of the Victorian period) from CR's is precisely because of the methodology and focus of the groups, were they not understood to be distinct (in developmental history, focus, method, philosophy, etc) they would not be.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 10:44 pm

Ah, TED.... that makes me a pantheist, I believe that "The All" is present is everything created, from the vast universe to the smallest molecule. My question to you is:
Do you see the balance of all?
My middle son views "The All" in a Buddist sense that "The All" is a mysterious law and is revealed through everything. Hmmm, maybe I'm Buddist also? LOL!
Really though TED, I'm just spiritual, always reading, researching and learning what else makes us the same. I tend to let my mind wander about all these possibilities. Why? Life just seems much more fun that way!
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by gillyflower on Sat May 30, 2009 11:01 pm

Weren't you the one comparing religion to electricians? Smile

Yes, I read about that in the Wikipedia article about the differences between neo-Druidism and Celtic Reconstructionism. I didn't realize that your religious umbrella was so young. Good luck!

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 11:11 pm

gillyflower wrote:Weren't you the one comparing religion to electricians? Smile

Yes, I read about that in the Wikipedia article about the differences between neo-Druidism and Celtic Reconstructionism. I didn't realize that your religious umbrella was so young. Good luck!

Young and tiny (seriously I'm one of four CR's I am aware of in Toronto (even if there were 20), 20 people out of 2.5 million, 0.000008% of the pop of one city... teensy weensy.

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Sat May 30, 2009 11:14 pm

Wait, wait,....I have a question for gilly and Gorm....back in the day, (in the 1970's back to the turn of the last century.....on our block there lived an old immigrant Italian woman. She lived by herself in her little house. She was a nice little old lady, she had some chickens, and her quaint house was the only place in the borough that had flowers, herbs, and a luscious garden. Whatever you may of needed you could go to her, & she would give it to you. (To us kids...."She was the Shit"...for modern day language) During Halloween...Her house was the place to be. On any given day, or night her house was busy. The Irish, the Blacks, the Italians, The Greeks, The Hungarians, The Hillbillies ....The Catholics, The Greek Catholics, The Baptists, The Lutherns, The Jews, The Police, The Mailman, The Paperboy, The Firemen, The Ward's council within our borough ALL knew her as
"The Witch".....noone called her by her 1st name nor her last. But EVERYONE graced her door, and was welcomed by her! You speak of Wicca and labels and research each others posts....you speak of religion and terminologies....to me and everyone that lived on that street, back in the day..
" A witch is a witch, is a witch.". No more no less, she just is! Did she know what we called her? Did she care? I believe she knew who she was....and enjoyed the respect that was given her, by all.
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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Beribee on Sat May 30, 2009 11:22 pm

What a cool story, Willow!

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Re: Gods and Goddesses

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat May 30, 2009 11:24 pm

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Wait, wait,....I have a question for gilly and Gorm....back in the day, (in the 1970's back to the turn of the last century.....on our block there lived an old immigrant Italian woman. She lived by herself in her little house. She was a nice little old lady, she had some chickens, and her quaint house was the only place in the borough that had flowers, herbs, and a luscious garden. Whatever you may of needed you could go to her, & she would give it to you. (To us kids...."She was the Shit"...for modern day language) During Halloween...Her house was the place to be. On any given day, or night her house was busy. The Irish, the Blacks, the Italians, The Greeks, The Hungarians, The Hillbillies ....The Catholics, The Greek Catholics, The Baptists, The Lutherns, The Jews, The Police, The Mailman, The Paperboy, The Firemen, The Ward's council within our borough ALL knew her as
"The Witch".....noone called her by her 1st name nor her last. But EVERYONE graced her door, and was welcomed by her! You speak of Wicca and labels and research each others posts....you speak of religion and terminologies....to me and everyone that lived on that street, back in the day..
" A witch is a witch, is a witch.". No more no less, she just is! Did she know what we called her? Did she care? I believe she knew who she was....and enjoyed the respect that was given her, by all.

I understand what you're saying. I'm all for respecting people, being civil and having discourse, but I think communities can (and should) be able to define themselves and maintain that definition if they want to, that is all.

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