How far is too far?

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

How far is too far?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon May 18, 2009 4:06 pm

Regarding the court battles about commencement ceremonies, and the plug being pulled at a highschool graduation on a girl who they felt had gone too far in expressing her faith and making a plea for Christianity, how far is too far when one's talking about their faith in a public speech?

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by samhain_autumnwood on Mon May 18, 2009 5:43 pm

The old adage: "the rights of others end where mine begin" comes to mind.

I think it will come down to whether someone feels threatened or marginalized by the expression and that will vary depending on the context and the players involved.
avatar
samhain_autumnwood

Posts : 105
Join date : 2009-04-25
Location : Baton Rouge, Louisiana

http://crazy-jeaux.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by gillyflower on Mon May 18, 2009 5:44 pm

It depends entirely upon the occasion and the desired result. Take one on the people who were running for office around here. He got on the radio and said people should vote for him because he was a True Christian and would put prayer back in our elementary schools where it belongs. He lost my vote because I don't want tax payer dollars and his time wasted on a losing battle and I don't think that being a True Christian equals anything more than he glad-hands at church on Sunday.

If you are talking about should a person use the podium at a secular institution for spreading propaganda about their religion or political party or any other pet project that they have, I think that is what air horns are for.

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon May 18, 2009 8:12 pm

Can I get a link so I can see what sparked this line of questioning. I am very confuzzled.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by wmdkitty on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:12 pm

A passing mention of faith, like "I'd like to thank God for..." is fine.

Pushing faith, on the other hand, is not.

I, too, would like to see the article that inspired this thread.
avatar
wmdkitty

Posts : 625
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Bellingham, WA

http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:46 pm

My bad.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/06/02/School_Had_Right_to_Demand_Grad_s_Apology_for_Come-to-Jesus_Speech.htm

And-

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-facebook-campaign-helps-ucla-student-thank-jesus-at-graduation-r-1244582293

That was another one of them. It was kind of a rash in the news around graduation time.

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:56 pm

Anymore, I've started to wonder, if they are mentioning it at the drop of a hat, are they telling me, or themselves?
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:01 pm

Trying to convince themselves you mean?

_________________
"I am often told that Divine Science is a difficult religion to live, and that other forms of religious belief afford an easier way. Perhaps this is true; for in Divine Science we never hold anyone else responsible for the things that come to us; we hold ourselves responsible for meeting the experiences of the day with power and of living our own lives divinely." – Nona Brooks
avatar
TigersEyeDowsing
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:08 pm

Or trying to keep themselves convinced.
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by wmdkitty on Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:19 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Or trying to keep themselves convinced.

Considering just how loudly they protest everything that could possibly refute their world-view, I'd say they're trying to keep themselves convinced. You know, "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Why, if their faith is so great, do they have to go out of their way to convince themselves and everyone else that their faith is the best one?

Could it possibly be that they know, on some level, just how screwed up it is to believe in a magic sky fairy who loves you unconditionally, but will send you to hell if you slip up? Could there be a sliver of doubt starting to take hold? Hm?

Is that why they are "commanded by god" to shun worldly things, so they will never doubt "god's word"?
avatar
wmdkitty

Posts : 625
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Bellingham, WA

http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:14 am

Hey TED. I couldn't get either of the links to work. Not that I'm opionated or anything but I kinda would like reading what the fuss is all about first. You all know how sweet & angelic de old warlord is.


Last edited by warlordofks on Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling.)

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:05 am

School Had Right to Demand Grad's Apology for Come-to-Jesus Speech



By AVERY FELLOW
ShareThis




(CN)
- A Colorado school district did not violate a high-school graduate's
constitutional rights by making her apologize after she used her
valedictory speech to invite people to find out about Jesus Christ, the
10th circuit ruled.
Former student Erica Corder, one of 15
valedictorians in the graduating class of 2006, gave a 30-second
graduation speech that was different than the one she submitted to the
principal.
Lewis Palmer School District No. 38 had a policy of reviewing student speeches before graduation.
Corder's
diploma was withheld until she publicly apologized for her speech in an
email sent from the principal's office, what Corder claims was a First
Amendment violation.
The district court ruled for the school district, prompting Corder's appeal.
The
Denver-based federal appeals court held that the school district was
allowed to exercise editorial control over Corder's speech without fear
of violating her First Amendment rights, because her speech was given
at a school-sponsored event in a way that "the public might reasonably
perceive to bear the imprimatur of the school."
The school's
content-review policy reflects "an effort to preserve neutrality" in a
school environment, Judge Briscoe wrote.
Briscoe added that the
school was "free to compel Corder's speech" in the email, because it
was disseminated from the principal's office and was directly related
to the graduation speech. The three-judge panel found the apology an
appropriate discipline for Corder's actions.
Corder was asked
to follow "the same religion-neutral policies as the other
valedictorians," Briscoe wrote, and did not suffer undue religious
burden.
The court also rejected Corder's 14th Amendment claim
for equal protection, in which she argued that she was treated
differently than other speakers who gave inspiring speeches without
disciplinary action. Not all speakers were similarly situated, the
panel ruled, because Corder's speech was different than the one she
submitted for review.
The court added that Corder's claim
does not fall under a Colorado law barring prior restraint of student
expression slated for written publication, because the graduation event
does not qualify as a publication.
The 10th Circuit also
dismissed the plaintiff's claims for declaratory and injunctive relief
as moot, because she is no longer a student.
The school had "reasonable, legitimate pedagogical purposes for disciplining Corder," Briscoe concluded.

_________________
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."
avatar
John T Mainer
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1004
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Maple Ridge, BC Can

http://community.bc-freehold.org/news.php

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:09 am

This is an example of the system actually working. As such, I have to hear about it from those in the know, because positive news will never make wire service distribution.

I swear intolerance is promoted by the media because acts of intolerance are shouted to the mountaintops, while acts of civilized moderation are blithely ignored. It promotes the belief that the intolerant few are indeed legion, and that the moderates lack the will or power to oppose them. This also makes any such conflict harsher, because the intolerant will now believe that they alone are facing censure; rather than all who act as they do.

_________________
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."
avatar
John T Mainer
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1004
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Maple Ridge, BC Can

http://community.bc-freehold.org/news.php

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:10 am

John T Mainer wrote:School Had Right to Demand Grad's Apology for Come-to-Jesus Speech



By AVERY FELLOW
ShareThis




(CN)
- A Colorado school district did not violate a high-school graduate's
constitutional rights by making her apologize after she used her
valedictory speech to invite people to find out about Jesus Christ, the
10th circuit ruled.
Former student Erica Corder, one of 15
valedictorians in the graduating class of 2006, gave a 30-second
graduation speech that was different than the one she submitted to the
principal.
Lewis Palmer School District No. 38 had a policy of reviewing student speeches before graduation.
Corder's
diploma was withheld until she publicly apologized for her speech in an
email sent from the principal's office, what Corder claims was a First
Amendment violation.
The district court ruled for the school district, prompting Corder's appeal.
The
Denver-based federal appeals court held that the school district was
allowed to exercise editorial control over Corder's speech without fear
of violating her First Amendment rights, because her speech was given
at a school-sponsored event in a way that "the public might reasonably
perceive to bear the imprimatur of the school."
The school's
content-review policy reflects "an effort to preserve neutrality" in a
school environment, Judge Briscoe wrote.
Briscoe added that the
school was "free to compel Corder's speech" in the email, because it
was disseminated from the principal's office and was directly related
to the graduation speech. The three-judge panel found the apology an
appropriate discipline for Corder's actions.
Corder was asked
to follow "the same religion-neutral policies as the other
valedictorians," Briscoe wrote, and did not suffer undue religious
burden.
The court also rejected Corder's 14th Amendment claim
for equal protection, in which she argued that she was treated
differently than other speakers who gave inspiring speeches without
disciplinary action. Not all speakers were similarly situated, the
panel ruled, because Corder's speech was different than the one she
submitted for review.
The court added that Corder's claim
does not fall under a Colorado law barring prior restraint of student
expression slated for written publication, because the graduation event
does not qualify as a publication.
The 10th Circuit also
dismissed the plaintiff's claims for declaratory and injunctive relief
as moot, because she is no longer a student.
The school had "reasonable, legitimate pedagogical purposes for disciplining Corder," Briscoe concluded.

You know, it surprises me that this happened, but I am from Oklahoma, after all.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:05 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Regarding the court battles about commencement ceremonies, and the plug being pulled at a highschool graduation on a girl who they felt had gone too far in expressing her faith and making a plea for Christianity, how far is too far when one's talking about their faith in a public speech?

Well, Joseph, how about this email that's going around here locally?

"Pastor Removal from Television:

Removal of Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, Dr. Young from Houston 2nd Baptist and other pastors from the airwaves.

An organization has been granted a Federal Hearing on the same subject by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC C) in Washington, D.C. Their petition, Number 2493, would ultimately pave the way to stop the reading of the gospel of our Lord and Savior, on the airwaves of America . They got 287,000 signatures to back their stand! If this attempt is successful, all Sunday worship services being broad cast on the radio or by television will be stopped. This group is also campaigning to remove all Christmas programs and Christmas carols from public schools!

You, as a Christian, can help! We are praying for at least 1 million signatures. This would defeat their effort and show that there are many Christians alive, well and concerned about our country.... As Christians, we must unite on this.

Please don't take this lightly. We ignored one lady once and lost prayer in our schools and in offices across the nation. Please stand up for your religious freedom and let your voice heard. Together we can make a difference in our country while creating an opportunity for the lost to know the Lord. Please, if you don't wish to participate, return this email to whoever sent it to you so they can at least keep this email going or forward it to someone you know who will wish to participate. Dr. Dobson is going on CNBC to urge every Christian to get involved. I hope you will sign and forward to all your family and friends.

Please press forward, CLEAN UP THE MESSAGE, and forward this to everyone you think should read this.... Now, please sign your name at the bottom (you can only add your name after you have pressed 'Forward' or you have to copied and pasted the text). Don't delete any other names, just go to the next number and type your name. Please do not sign jointly, such as Mr. & Mrs., each person should sign his/her own name.

Please defeat this organization and keep the light of our freedom of religion. When you get to 1,000 please e-mail back to: Lisa Norman"

Without breaking it down and singling out each distortion of the truth, or the out right lies included in this message, can you see where the wolves are trying their best to scare the sheep? Plainly and simply put, no one is out to remove Christian televangelists from their spots on the air waves. In reality, according to the Constitution, they can't under several articles, the least of which is the right to freedom of speach. Each radio and television must every so often go up for review when reapplying for their license with the FCC. Each station is committed to do so much public service broadcasts, and the petition is kept out for public review with singatures form those who either approve the job they've done or even for that matter disapprove. All are invited to review what the station has accomplished. Now one of the big flaps that actually did go to court was when Family Radio went in and started scooping up licenses that were once reserved for collages and universities. There was a law suit to stop this practice, because Family Radio was going behind the universities and taking their licenses. It didn't restrict Family Radio from obtaining licenses through regular procedures however.

Nw concerning what you mentioned aout the girl professing her faith. The court forbade school districts from making prayer or bible study manditory in public schools. It hasn't done one thing to eleminate prayer, or the outward show of religion. It's just makes it illegal to coerce someone to participate in the activity. I suppose this is what came into play on her sermonizing. Not knowing the full details, I can only make an uneducated guess. Now, if, just for instance, had she announced she was going to give a small prayer for her class, and invited those in attendance to join her IF THEY DESIRED, she would have been within the spirit and letter of the law.

Just my thoughts on it.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:52 pm

When they relent and let us see boobs on tv under freedom of speech, then they will have a case.

all
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:53 pm

I don't think it will hold. If there are viewers, then there will be a show. Market share is everything. That, of course, doesn't mean that some shows are not cancelled, leaving viewers howling in protest. Look at Jericho. But it does mean that TV producers look at the bottom line. And the FCC doesn't have the power it once had.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:01 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:I don't think it will hold. If there are viewers, then there will be a show. Market share is everything. That, of course, doesn't mean that some shows are not cancelled, leaving viewers howling in protest. Look at Jericho. But it does mean that TV producers look at the bottom line. And the FCC doesn't have the power it once had.

Jericho most likely went down because of ratings. That's the bottom line on secular tv. If the advertisers don't feel they are getting their money's worth, they pull back their dollars. And trust me, that carries more weight for television producers than church, FCC or anything else. If you look at shows like Touched by an Angel, or Highway to Heaven, they were successful, and even when the shows did eventually go off the air, it was for reasons "other than religion".

Had I read the full story on that high school girl, I would not have gone into such a rant about that spam that's been circulating about forcing those poor televangelists off the air. The bare bones truth is that she was coercing others to accept "her" brand of religion. And the school board was right for what they did.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:10 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:When they relent and let us see boobs on tv under freedom of speech, then they will have a case.

all

Call me a prude, or a grandfathertobe, or whatever, but I think prime time boobs ought to stay a no no. I'm still in shock from seeing Janet Jackson's boob come flying out at that Super bowl Half-Time show. affraid I mean if I wanted to see a pair of forty year old tits that bad Razz ........ well, Fang ain't forty any more, but you know what I mean. Wink

Kids, IMO, don't need to be exposed to nudity so early in life. As it is, it seems like kids are growing up way the hell faster than I did. Let 'em stay kids for awhile longer. Then introduce them to it say after they turn 30. Laughing

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:22 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:
sacrificialgoddess wrote:I don't think it will hold. If there are viewers, then there will be a show. Market share is everything. That, of course, doesn't mean that some shows are not cancelled, leaving viewers howling in protest. Look at Jericho. But it does mean that TV producers look at the bottom line. And the FCC doesn't have the power it once had.

Jericho most likely went down because of ratings. That's the bottom line on secular tv. If the advertisers don't feel they are getting their money's worth, they pull back their dollars. And trust me, that carries more weight for television producers than church, FCC or anything else. If you look at shows like Touched by an Angel, or Highway to Heaven, they were successful, and even when the shows did eventually go off the air, it was for reasons "other than religion".

Had I read the full story on that high school girl, I would not have gone into such a rant about that spam that's been circulating about forcing those poor televangelists off the air. The bare bones truth is that she was coercing others to accept "her" brand of religion. And the school board was right for what they did.

Actually, on Jericho, I was talking about the fans successful play to bring it back after it got cancelled. Fans howl loudly enough, sponsors listen. Sponsors listen, then network executives listen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_(TV_series)#First_season_2
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:23 pm

OK, I stand corrected. I don't watch a whole lot of tv anymore, and never kept up with it. I thought maybe it had in fact been cancelled.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by MaineCaptain on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:24 pm

I am a prude myself, and do not want to see nudity of any kind on regular TV, I can find it if I want to, I hate that kind of surprise on shows I want to actually watch. Embarassed

_________________
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
avatar
MaineCaptain
Admin
Admin

Posts : 2869
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : New England

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:13 pm

Reminds me of when I went to see Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Thought it was a PG-13 movie when it is in fact an R movie. Total male frontal nudity in the first 15 minutes. Boy, was I not expecting that! Then again, it was a nice change from all the gratutious female nudity you always see, and it was connected- just a bit- to the plot.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by MaineCaptain on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:24 pm

Thank you SG, you made me smile Very Happy


I love this bit " and it was connected- just a bit- to the plot."

_________________
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
avatar
MaineCaptain
Admin
Admin

Posts : 2869
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : New England

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:10 pm

It was! His girlfriend came over. He thought he was going to get the sex, so he took off his clothes. Instead, he got the break-up.
avatar
sacrificialgoddess
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3199
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Oklahoma

http://kltompkins.wordpress.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: How far is too far?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum