Bad People

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:30 am

Well, then, how do we identify bad traits and how do we prevent them from being passed along for the good of the group?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:34 am

gillyflower wrote:Well, then, how do we identify bad traits and how do we prevent them from being passed along for the good of the group?

It's not about 'bad traits' in general. But I'm all for castrating mass murderers, for example.

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:44 am

But why do that if they are removed from the general populace and unable to reproduce? Isn't that part of why they are placed in a prison? Most people don't say that it is part of the solution but that is the bottom line, isn't it? They can't reproduce in prison.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:52 am

gillyflower wrote:But why do that if they are removed from the general populace and unable to reproduce? Isn't that part of why they are placed in a prison? Most people don't say that it is part of the solution but that is the bottom line, isn't it? They can't reproduce in prison.

I never thought about it that way ... I thought prison was mainly to keep them from harming other people and to punish them.

I'd still castrate serial killers and other psychopaths though.

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:08 am

It is hard to make those permanent solutions to protecting the populace. What if one of them is innocent?

I would expand the list of men and women who should be castrated (or given a vasectomy) or neutered, not as punishment to them but to prevent their genes from being passed along.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:11 am

gillyflower wrote:It is hard to make those permanent solutions to protecting the populace. What if one of them is innocent?

I'd advocate sterilization only for obvious and proven psychopaths.

I would expand the list of men and women who should be castrated (or given a vasectomy) or neutered, not as punishment to them but to prevent their genes from being passed along.

Yes, why not? Let's add pedophiles to the list.

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Re: Bad People

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:35 am

And, because the conversation seems to be headed that way, I would like to link to The Darwin Awards!

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Re: Bad People

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:20 am

Rolling Eyes Alright STOP! Sterilizing, denutting proven serial killers, etc. Do people not yet understand that children are reproducing & behaving badly well below the age of 21yrs old?! Its not about sex & reproduction & can't do this or that. It is about getting some kind of "ass in gear, hands on" therapy for the criminally (not mentally) insane! We went from "bad people" & societies "labeling" to the criminally insane.
Just like us, taking it to the outer limits! alien

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:24 am

Whip2 Whip2 Blow Up

Again my apologies! That was ME, not John!
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:24 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:Rolling Eyes Alright STOP! Sterilizing, denutting proven serial killers, etc. Do people not yet understand that children are reproducing & behaving badly well below the age of 21yrs old?! Its not about sex & reproduction & can't do this or that. It is about getting some kind of "ass in gear, hands on" therapy for the criminally (not mentally) insane! We went from "bad people" & societies "labeling" to the criminally insane.
Just like us, taking it to the outer limits! alien

We need to distinguish between mentally sane and insane criminals then.

Although neither, in my opinion, have freewill. But the mentally sane can at least still be influenced and 'saved'.

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Re: Bad People

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:17 pm

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Sad Yes, I do certainly understand what you are saying friend!
If it is clinically proving, then YES by all means lets get these people some kind of help, beyond pills, call me in the morning & have a great day! Locking them up & throwing away the key isn't the answer either.

Actually, institutionalizing psychopaths and sociopaths for life may be the only remedy until we learn more about not only what causes these conditions but achieve effective means of "mellowing out" their more anti-social behaviors.

There have been some "private" ran housing for these people...but more is needed! Prison for crimes yes, but habitats for the "broken" is not even tapped. Why? Are we afraid of the crazies, or the insane, the ill of mind & spirit?

Yes, indeed. There remains an underlying fear of people who don't behave "normally." We're still caught up in the medieval mentality that such people are "possessed by evil spirits" even though most of us now know intellectually that that's not the cause.

There's something very frightening as well about the fact that there are mental illnesses that are still essentially untreatable. Mentally ill serial killers may well be among these. Certain types of schizophrenia can be, too.

Even those able to live normally while medicated may eventually be unable to do so. Sadly, a good many such medications eventually become ineffective or much less capable of controlling symptoms as a person ages.

Are we really protecting ourselves or them? This is an issue that needs to be addressed. That in itself is an injustice to our fellow man.

When so many mental illnesses became controllable by medication, I think we were lulled into a false sense of security where such are concerned and thus closed down most state-run institutions that formerly housed the mentally ill. Granted, some people were institutionalized wrongly, but these places also functioned to protect both the mentally ill and society in extreme cases.

We're long overdue a revamping of how this country deals with mental illness for those lacking the means to check themselves or an ailing family member into expensive private facilities.
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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:03 pm

That's the truth. We really do need institutions to house and protect the mentally ill. We need safe day care for them, too. You would not believe how many of them are told to go to the library for the day. It isn't a care taking facility.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:40 pm

gillyflower wrote:That's the truth. We really do need institutions to house and protect the mentally ill. We need safe day care for them, too. You would not believe how many of them are told to go to the library for the day. It isn't a care taking facility.

Aren't you talking like a Socialist??? Wink

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:16 pm

No, I'm talking like a pre-Reaganite. Mental institutions cost the tax-payer money, that's mainly why they were more or less done away with. The sad truth is that there are a group of mentally ill people who are preyed upon by others and aren't really competent to take care of themselves and they are out on the streets. They need to be protected and cared for in a safe environment where they won't hurt other people or get hurt themselves.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:13 pm

I don't think genetics has anything to do with a person's predisposition to do bad things. If that were the case, I believe, bad people could only pass along bad genes, and visa verse.

Now, I think there can be anomalies within the frame work of the genes that can cause some inability to process certain things, or create allergies, but I am determined that nurture, and environment play more of a role in the creation of unfeeling people. Take for example a child molester, or someone prone to spousal abuse... In almost every instance, if one checks the history of such people, you will find they either endured, or witnessed the same abuse from people who were charged with their care, safety and upbringing. And further research would show how far up the line this abuse went in effect perpetuating the behavior. In other words, it's learned behavior, and in absence of any other behavior, the abuse is considered normal to the person learning how to interact in society. It isn't something a person is born with, but a learned behavior. If one sits with an unbiased eye, (Dave), you can see where the traits are taught.

One has to question how a person raised to believe that killing another is immoral could become a soldier and go into combat. His (her) morals he was raised with suddenly are set aside, and another pattern of behavior is justified by virtue of the fact that this hostile act is for the benefit of one's country, and the "enemy" is demonized, and he is told that by eliminating this demon, he is doing a service to his god and country. A new thought pattern is created, and for some, once home again within the confines of the society he left, some have problems divorcing the two. Why do you think counseling is so important for veterans returning form war? Personally, I would have a hard time sitting on a jury where a war veteran was accused and on trial for murder.

I stand behind my belief that the blank slate rule applies where teaching a child right from wrong is concerned. I understand that I am doing a poor job of articulating my feelings. The nuances are such that attempting to explain myself within the confines of this format seems inadequate, and less than completely thought out. But I am quite sure that genetics plays no role in a child being predisposed in being "bad",

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:21 pm

John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID
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Re: Bad People

Post by Chokmah on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 pm

Then there are people who are not criminally insane but who have 'issues' nonetheless. What about people who were molested as children, who suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

I have met women who were abused as children, raped even, and then went on to live lives of drug addiction, petty crime, and prostitution. Are these people throwaways? Should they be locked up for most of their lives?

I say, "Treatment not prison". America now has more people in prison than the Soviets ever had in their Gulags. Let's take the Gospel command seriously when the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" is asked.


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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:11 pm

gillyflower wrote:No, I'm talking like a pre-Reaganite. Mental institutions cost the tax-payer money, that's mainly why they were more or less done away with. The sad truth is that there are a group of mentally ill people who are preyed upon by others and aren't really competent to take care of themselves and they are out on the streets. They need to be protected and cared for in a safe environment where they won't hurt other people or get hurt themselves.

But that would reduce the number of politicians, talking heads and talk radio 'stars' by two thirds!! Wink

Seriously though: you're right of course.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:14 pm

Davelaw wrote:John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID

He sadly seems to suffer from some brain damage which disables him from feeling normal, human emotions in certain (a lot of?) cases ... ?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:16 pm

Chokmah wrote:Then there are people who are not criminally insane but who have 'issues' nonetheless. What about people who were molested as children, who suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

I have met women who were abused as children, raped even, and then went on to live lives of drug addiction, petty crime, and prostitution. Are these people throwaways? Should they be locked up for most of their lives?

I say, "Treatment not prison". America now has more people in prison than the Soviets ever had in their Gulags. Let's take the Gospel command seriously when the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" is asked.

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I am all for treatment! But SOME people seem to be beyond recovery ... they need to be locked away to keep them from harming others.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:33 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID

He sadly seems to suffer from some brain damage which disables him from feeling normal, human emotions in certain (a lot of?) cases ... ?

He can feel emotions or he couldn't manipulate them in others.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:36 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID

He sadly seems to suffer from some brain damage which disables him from feeling normal, human emotions in certain (a lot of?) cases ... ?

He can feel emotions or he couldn't manipulate them in others.

Of course he can feel SOME emotions but he doesn't seem to be able to feel the same emotions that you, for example, do. Or does harming people and animals make you feel good? (I'm assuming they make him feel good)

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:39 pm

Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID

He sadly seems to suffer from some brain damage which disables him from feeling normal, human emotions in certain (a lot of?) cases ... ?

He can feel emotions or he couldn't manipulate them in others.

Of course he can feel SOME emotions but he doesn't seem to be able to feel the same emotions that you, for example, do. Or does harming people and animals make you feel good? (I'm assuming they make him feel good)

I don't think they make him feel good; just less bored.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:41 pm

"Am I my brother's keeper?" is asked.

Yes we are, & we also tend to Mother Earth. So when are we going to start doing this, Mankind?
Don't BS me with Gospels, or what is written in any books, because Mankind after all these years still hasn't learned basic knowledge. We would rather control, war, & argue & kill spirits of others then to do what needs to be done. Mankind is full of BS excuses. Mankind needs crutches to lean on to excuse himself from his responsibility to his own survival.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:46 pm

Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Davelaw wrote:John, how do you explain my brother and I being raised basically identically with him being whats amounts to being a sociopath and me being who I am?

Trust me; he was never abused or harmed (if anything he might have been coddled more than me being the youngest-but he was harming other kids and animals from a young age and you know where he live now. TDCJ-ID

He sadly seems to suffer from some brain damage which disables him from feeling normal, human emotions in certain (a lot of?) cases ... ?

He can feel emotions or he couldn't manipulate them in others.

Of course he can feel SOME emotions but he doesn't seem to be able to feel the same emotions that you, for example, do. Or does harming people and animals make you feel good? (I'm assuming they make him feel good)

I don't think they make him feel good; just less bored.

Feeling less bored is a more positive feeling than feeling more bored, right?

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Re: Bad People

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