Bad People

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:35 pm

flower MaineCaptain, you must be a survivor, and learned those techniques from your mother! Your fondness for your mother, & humanizing her cannot be done by everyone! I can stand up here & down my mother & family for my short comings, but really what does it do? Blaming others for how YOU are, or see life, or come against the good w the bad times....is totally on YOU. (You is the general public). Children don't come with manuals & instruction books. Parents since the beginning of time can only do what they know, and sometimes that goes with just a gut feeling!
With our son, Dave...oh he was a whiper snapper back when he was a youngin! Looking back on it the good/great accomplishments out weighed the heartaches! Trust me thinking that ADD is something awful because society says so, is a line of crap! Which brings me back to society & defining what IS bad or good? Its an individual preference. I'm ADD, & I like me, I think I'm a great individual! bounce I believe in HOPE for the future!
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Re: Bad People

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:59 pm

Thank you Willow, My Mother was a wonderful women. We were best friends right up until she passed a few years ago. She did everything she could for me. And more , I was spoiled because she needed to work, and poor lady she felt guilty as do many working Mums.

She never hurt me, and thought she had me in the best of care, unfortunately that was not the case. She never knew that and as a small child I did not know how to tell her.
We did have a full discussion many years later on the subject and she was horrify and stunned.

How she managed to raise me with everyone against her I'll never know, (She never had support of any kind moral support or financial) and I was no prize for quite a few years in there. I feel bad about that. Embarassed

Those who were responsible for the abuse, I have never forgotten them, but I have no bad feeling about it to eat at me. I conquered that.
But I still fight some things, I am not as confident and brave as I should be. But I am working on it. baby steps everyday Smile

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Re: Bad People

Post by Beribee on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Willowcreek70633 wrote: Trust me thinking that ADD is something awful because society says so, is a line of crap! Which brings me back to society & defining what IS bad or good? Its an individual preference. I'm ADD, & I like me, I think I'm a great individual! bounce I believe in HOPE for the future!

I love what you said, Willow! I have raised both of my sons to believe that they are worthwhile human beings, no matter what struggles they have to go through in life. You see, both of them are cardiac children....which means that they both had heart surgery and many procedures all before they were 3 months old. We didn't tell them they were different at all when they were little. As they were growing up, they literally thought that everybody had heart surgery when they were a baby (They actually asked me when they were about 6 why one of their friends didn't have a scar like they did! LOL They had different heart surgeries but they have the same scar, which is funny since they are identical twins.) So when one of them was diagnosed with ADD, we just took it in stride.....after all, he had survived heart surgery! Same with when they had to repeat kindergarten (they were born 10 weeks premature, so repeating kindergarten is the norm). So we've been through a lot, this little family of ours, but the struggles have all been worth it in the end....and if ADD is the worst thing we have to deal with, that's just fine by me!

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:43 am

I think there is a small percentage of people in the world who are either born evil or achieve that status at a very young age. I think there is equally small number of people who always do the noble thing, the self sacrificing thing that which brings the most good to the greatest number; all the rest of us are a mixed bag.
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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:06 am

Have you met any people who were born evil?

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Re: Bad People

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:29 am

I've met people who were born mean. Not the same thing, obviously.

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:33 am

The movies are full of people who were "born evil" but I've never met one, that I am aware. Ditto for the "all good."

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:53 am

Shocked My childhood friends brother, was dying of Cancer of the throat that entered the brain. He was given less than 6months to live last yr. His wife was with him from the beginning & up to the end. He shot his wife, then himself.
He was always an ASS. Even as a teen. He enjoyed Power, Control, & had such a huge Ego. He could smooth talk his way into & out of trouble. He talked himself up & everyone else down. He never respected his parents or his sibling. Can I think of anything that was good about him? I'd have to think long & hard on that. If I searched within and gave it time, I could probably mention something.
Was he born evil or bad? Who is at fault? His parents, his family? No, he was just full of himself, & had issues of his own that he would not deal with. He knew he had problems, but would not admit that to himself. He lied his whole life about everything & to everyone....even himself!
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Re: Bad People

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:13 pm

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Shocked My childhood friends brother, was dying of Cancer of the throat that entered the brain. He was given less than 6months to live last yr. His wife was with him from the beginning & up to the end. He shot his wife, then himself.
He was always an ASS. Even as a teen. He enjoyed Power, Control, & had such a huge Ego. He could smooth talk his way into & out of trouble. He talked himself up & everyone else down. He never respected his parents or his sibling. Can I think of anything that was good about him? I'd have to think long & hard on that. If I searched within and gave it time, I could probably mention something.
Was he born evil or bad? Who is at fault? His parents, his family? No, he was just full of himself, & had issues of his own that he would not deal with. He knew he had problems, but would not admit that to himself. He lied his whole life about everything & to everyone....even himself!

See? That's a mean person. I don't know that I would go so far as to say evil, but definitely mean.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:39 pm

I'm related to one
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Re: Bad People

Post by John T Mainer on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Some people are born with no ability to empathize, they may learn to fake it, or they may learn to exploit it; some learn both. Other people simply are not real, so by extension their suffering is not real. If you live in a world of cardboard cut-outs, where you are the only real thing, how easy is it to start slicing them up, or knocking them down when you feel the need for a giggle?

I really don't care why they end up this way, at what point they embraced this, and chose to live it to its most destructive extent. It is enough to identify, isolate, and neutralize them.

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Re: Bad People

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:59 pm

I agree that people are born mean (and born lots of other ways). I have a sibling who was born fairly mean, and from the minute of popping out out I knew something was wrong. Tried to fix it for years. Now it's mostly a stubborness, there's a good person in there, but it had to be cultivated.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Guest on Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:11 am

Ditto with John..... Can we ever understand the why's of it? I doubt it. Can we deal with it? Yes, and it may not always be politically correct to do so.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Chokmah on Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:07 pm

Sociopaths are hard to deal with, so are narcissists. Sociopaths often go on to be captains of industry, or CEO's, or other famous people.

Some cultures relish sociopaths. Consider the Samurai warriors of ancient Japan, or a military leader, or most politicians.

I am not saying that most politicians are sociopaths, but I believe many of them are at least narcissists. Some are malevolent narcissists. these people are users.

I actually feel sorry for them because they had nothing to do with they way they are. I wonder how God will judge them since they are just being the way God created them.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:33 am

Razz come on SG, he took the "chicken shit" way out! He didn't have the balls to face his own death, so he took his wife also?
Call me stupid or just plain pissed off...but John I don't understand what your saying, other than the last sentence. "It is enough to identify, isolate, and neutralize them."
TED, yes...some people have to be "worked" with, as you say cultivated! That must of been a tedious, task.
Chokmah, I really do understand what your saying. But society can put all these mental bug a boo "paths" at the ends of words! They don't fly w me! They are excuses for people to walk through life with crutches & get away with murder...we need as a society, a world to find these people help if truly medically confirmed. Hell I can read about something...& my goodness act just like it. I worked w a co worker that someone thought she was a socio-path..she was nothing more or nothing less than a manipulative, egotistical, self serving bitch. (Notice the period at the end of the sentence?) bounce (Sorry, but after a Drill weekend, I'm always a little fiesty)...I'm more homicidal than suicidal.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:39 am

gillyflower wrote:Something someone posted on another thread had me thinking. We all fling around the words bad people and evil people but were they born that way? Did forces make them that way? Were they that way because no one stopped them? Everyone here has probably had the experience of having to modify your behavior because a person that you care about has told you what you are doing wrong and why. You change your behavior because you want to please them or you've seen the light, so to speak. What if that hadn't happened? Would you have become/been one of the "bad people" we all talk about? If you do good things too are you still a bad person? Do you think that everyone is a mix of bad and good (and will you be punished for that) or you think the bad in you is a flaw, a mistake?

Who judges after death in your religion that you need punishing by suffering or have to be in less desirable circumstances next time? Who decides that?

Since I don't believe in freewill I think that people should be prevented from harming other people, regardless of whether they're accountable for it or not. Even punishment makes sense at times since it would constitute additional, new input which could turn the 'bad' person into a 'good' one.

So I think that given their history, people HAD to become the way they are. That's unfortunate and often tragic but we can't change that. What we can do if we feel like it (and that's not a choice either) is to try to influence people in a way that doesn't make them bad or at least make them less bad.

So if 'I' had been born under the same conditions and experienced the same as, let's say, Hitler, I'm convinced I would have ended up like him. Luckily I haven't.

'Evil' behavior is also often the result of psychological illnesses or brain damage. These people should be treated and if that doesn't help, be locked away in order to keep them from harming other people.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:45 am

gillyflower wrote:The movies are full of people who were "born evil" but I've never met one, that I am aware. Ditto for the "all good."

I'm convinced that babies have a blank slate as to psychological issues when they get born. What turns them good or bad are there subsequent experiences.

This assumes healthy brains of course.

Less healthy brains, because of damaged genes or whatever, have an added handicap right from the start ...

And seriously, a small boy who, for examples, tortures animals for fun is already damaged in some way. I'm not speaking about curious kids trying to rip a fly's wings off just once just 'to see' or because they're curious. Usually they realize afterwards that maybe it wasn't such a great idea/experiment. I'm speaking about kids who repeat such things over and over again, and for fun! They're troubled.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:58 am

Razz Great point Celsus, with the torturing child! The remedy? A good swift kick in the ass! And don't give me the "Thats ok" lady from the commercials, or the "OM, NOT MY child, BS either! That type of behavior should lead to pure violence when someone thinks harming to have a good time is fun!
You want to see harming to have a good time & having fun also? I'm just scarey that way! Brings respect & scared shitless into a whole new view! LOL! Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:14 am

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Razz Great point Celsus, with the torturing child! The remedy? A good swift kick in the ass! And don't give me the "Thats ok" lady from the commercials, or the "OM, NOT MY child, BS either! That type of behavior should lead to pure violence when someone thinks harming to have a good time is fun!
You want to see harming to have a good time & having fun also? I'm just scarey that way! Brings respect & scared shitless into a whole new view! LOL! Evil or Very Mad

But the kick in the ass doesn't always work. If the kid is really messed up (meaning his brain is damaged or wired in a weird way) then he may stop his behavior to the outside world but still have the same urges inside.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:23 am

Sad Yes, I do certainly understand what you are saying friend!
If it is clinically proving, then YES by all means lets get these people some kind of help, beyond pills, call me in the morning & have a great day! Locking them up & throwing away the key isn't the answer either.
Cases in point. There was a PBS documentary on mentally ill inmates, (close to 1/2 of population) & how different states have set up "self help/check in centers" after they have been released from prison. This documentary came to some eye opening conclusions. Within weeks or months these same inmates because of unavailability & isolation, of $, jobs, or no medication commit petty or horrific crimes or are found living on the streets worse off then they were in prison. Within the prison system they have steady meals, teaching, outreach, counseling, & schedules for med. On the outside its all lost. There have been some "private" ran housing for these people...but more is needed! Prison for crimes yes, but habitats for the "broken" is not even tapped. Why? Are we afraid of the crazies, or the insane, the ill of mind & spirit? Are we really protecting ourselves or them? This is an issue that needs to be addressed. That in itself is an injustice to our fellow man.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:31 am

Willowcreek70633 wrote:Sad Yes, I do certainly understand what you are saying friend!
If it is clinically proving, then YES by all means lets get these people some kind of help, beyond pills, call me in the morning & have a great day! Locking them up & throwing away the key isn't the answer either.

Well, it depends. Some people are simply behind recovery. They're so damaged that they can't be turned into humans that won't harm or kill other people. In that case they need to be, at the least, be locked away.

Cases in point. There was a PBS documentary on mentally ill inmates, (close to 1/2 of population) & how different states have set up "self help/check in centers" after they have been released from prison. This documentary came to some eye opening conclusions. Within weeks or months these same inmates because of unavailability & isolation, of $, jobs, or no medication commit petty or horrific crimes or are found living on the streets worse off then they were in prison. Within the prison system they have steady meals, teaching, outreach, counseling, & schedules for med. On the outside its all lost. There have been some "private" ran housing for these people...but more is needed! Prison for crimes yes, but habitats for the "broken" is not even tapped. Why? Are we afraid of the crazies, or the insane, the ill of mind & spirit? Are we really protecting ourselves or them? This is an issue that needs to be addressed. That in itself is an injustice to our fellow man.

The whole punishment and imprisonment system needs a reform! That's for sure.

But it's also a BIG BUSINESS. And the prison lobby doesn't want to see LESS inmates ... I read an article on that somewhere recently, don't remember where ... Newsweek?

And a lot of people are in prison who shouldn't be there in the first place (because their crime doesn't justify it or because it only makes matters worse). And the concept of prison needs an overhaul too. But these are BIG endeavors ... and based on problems that go very deep in society.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:30 am

Celsus wrote:
Willowcreek70633 wrote:Razz Great point Celsus, with the torturing child! The remedy? A good swift kick in the ass! And don't give me the "Thats ok" lady from the commercials, or the "OM, NOT MY child, BS either! That type of behavior should lead to pure violence when someone thinks harming to have a good time is fun!
You want to see harming to have a good time & having fun also? I'm just scarey that way! Brings respect & scared shitless into a whole new view! LOL! Evil or Very Mad

But the kick in the ass doesn't always work. If the kid is really messed up (meaning his brain is damaged or wired in a weird way) then he may stop his behavior to the outside world but still have the same urges inside.

I don't think Dee was talking so much about a child born with a handicap. And I believe in the Swift Kick in the Ass theory too. Perhaps that's why we never really argued over child rearing techniques..... probably one area we were in total agreement, actually.

I don't buy into the concept that kids are born just plain mean. Like you, I believe they are born with that blank slate. The thing about being born with this blank slate is that they don't know mean from not without some form of guidance. Otherwise, it's more like self will run riot. Just like children are taught manners, they need to be taught empathy, and yes, even sympathy. That isn't an inbred trait, it's a learned virtue. Kids are concerned with their own needs, and we feed this to them by stopping what we are doing to cater to them. I'm not suggesting ignore an infant who cries needing to be fed or changed, but that child that interrupts conversations to gain attention, or throws a tantrum in the grocery when mommy or daddy won't get him the toy or candy that catches his eye at that very moment needs to be diciplined and trained not to expect his every wish be granted. It just isn't real world for them to grow up expecting the world to cater to their every whim, and to avoid dicipline is giving just that impression. Telling a kid NO, or correcting inappropriate behavior isn't bad parenting. Doting and caving in to their every whim and fancy leads to kids who become adults and expect the same thing from others long after mom and dad have gone to their grave is. That's what turns good people into bad ones; when they've had their every wish given to them, and suddenly they come to the cross roads and find that life just don't work that way.

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:34 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Willowcreek70633 wrote:Razz Great point Celsus, with the torturing child! The remedy? A good swift kick in the ass! And don't give me the "Thats ok" lady from the commercials, or the "OM, NOT MY child, BS either! That type of behavior should lead to pure violence when someone thinks harming to have a good time is fun!
You want to see harming to have a good time & having fun also? I'm just scarey that way! Brings respect & scared shitless into a whole new view! LOL! Evil or Very Mad

But the kick in the ass doesn't always work. If the kid is really messed up (meaning his brain is damaged or wired in a weird way) then he may stop his behavior to the outside world but still have the same urges inside.

I don't think Dee was talking so much about a child born with a handicap. And I believe in the Swift Kick in the Ass theory too. Perhaps that's why we never really argued over child rearing techniques..... probably one area we were in total agreement, actually.

I don't buy into the concept that kids are born just plain mean. Like you, I believe they are born with that blank slate. The thing about being born with this blank slate is that they don't know mean from not without some form of guidance. Otherwise, it's more like self will run riot. Just like children are taught manners, they need to be taught empathy, and yes, even sympathy. That isn't an inbred trait, it's a learned virtue. Kids are concerned with their own needs, and we feed this to them by stopping what we are doing to cater to them. I'm not suggesting ignore an infant who cries needing to be fed or changed, but that child that interrupts conversations to gain attention, or throws a tantrum in the grocery when mommy or daddy won't get him the toy or candy that catches his eye at that very moment needs to be diciplined and trained not to expect his every wish be granted. It just isn't real world for them to grow up expecting the world to cater to their every whim, and to avoid dicipline is giving just that impression. Telling a kid NO, or correcting inappropriate behavior isn't bad parenting. Doting and caving in to their every whim and fancy leads to kids who become adults and expect the same thing from others long after mom and dad have gone to their grave is. That's what turns good people into bad ones; when they've had their every wish given to them, and suddenly they come to the cross roads and find that life just don't work that way.

I meant a 'psychological' handicap which can be found in certain serial killers, for example. They are simply unable to feel certain sensations that we 'normal' people feel when we hurt somebody.

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:54 am

As a mother, I don't believe that children are born as blank slates because each child is different and you aren't going to write on that slate just what you want. They've got their own input, too, plus experiences. When I was young it was taught they were and then there were the "experiments" where families raised other people's children and some turned out okay and some didn't. Genetics matters. Some people are more addictive personalities and that runs in families, just as physical traits do.

As for psychological handicaps - do we want them to pass along those traits?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:20 am

gillyflower wrote:As a mother, I don't believe that children are born as blank slates because each child is different and you aren't going to write on that slate just what you want. They've got their own input, too, plus experiences. When I was young it was taught they were and then there were the "experiments" where families raised other people's children and some turned out okay and some didn't. Genetics matters. Some people are more addictive personalities and that runs in families, just as physical traits do.

Of course genetics matter! What I meant was that relatively speaking babies have a blank slate. What can be written on the slate or how the slate will process the experiences on the other hand is of course influenced by the state of the slate ( = genetics).

As for psychological handicaps - do we want them to pass along those traits?

Of course not.

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