Bad People

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:06 am

Davelaw wrote:who knows; they are egoists and deluded-it could be anything
to learn about something-they may take it apart (Dr Mengele); if someone trespasses on their property-they may kidnap them
edit// It can as simple as Marvin the Martian wanting to blow up the Earth because it blocks his view of the moon -you do know Bugs Bunny?

You're still trying to escape the question (or rather the answer) though.

Did taking 'things' apart make Dr Mengele feel better or worse than if he didn't do it? Did he think his work was interesting or boring?

Marvin the Martian WANTED to see the moon and not being able to do so made him feel bad or made him angry THAT's WHY he wanted to blow up the Earth. It wasn't just a random wish. It was because blowing it up would make him feel better or give him what he wanted.

Same goes for sociopaths.

They do whatever they are doing because it makes them FEEL BETTER (or less bad).

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:24 am

no blowing up the earth was irrelevant to his feelings-seeing the Moon made him feel better


the other was just ends to a means and therefore feeling neutral
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:50 am

Davelaw wrote:no blowing up the earth was irrelevant to his feelings-seeing the Moon made him feel better

the other was just ends to a means and therefore feeling neutral

Wrong. His AIM in blowing up the Moon was to feel better, agreed?

You also forgot this one: Did taking 'things' apart make Dr Mengele feel better or worse than if he didn't do it? Did he think his work was interesting or boring?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:26 am

disagree-seeing the moon

Menegele-understanding what was made him feel better-another means to an end
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:35 am

Davelaw wrote:disagree-seeing the moon

Menegele-understanding what was made him feel better-another means to an end

Geez, you can't be that dense, can you? Wink

Let's try it again:

IF Marvin's AIM, or INTENT, was to SEE the Moon then how would he feel in case he couldn't achieve his aim? Good or bad (better or worse)?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Davelaw on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:13 pm

he would make himself feel better by seeing the moon-but whateever action he took -would not in and of itself make him feel better but only be one of several means to end

the means itself is emotion neutral-he would felt just as good if he had moved his space ship to getter a better view
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Re: Bad People

Post by wmdkitty on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:10 pm

Why do good people sometimes feel like the "bad guy"?

For example, an abuser is entirely to blame for his behavior, and feels no guilt. But the victim often feels that it is her fault, and feels guilty for his actions.

What is this paradox?
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Re: Bad People

Post by wmdkitty on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:23 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Beribee wrote:John, before I had kids, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you about the whole ADD thing. However, now that I have IDENTICAL twin sons, where one has ADD and the other does not, my opinion has changed dramatically. It is heartbreaking to watch one of your sons try and try to concentrate on something and not be able to. Both kids played outside as much as possible and were limited on how much time they spent in front of a TV or playing video games. He was diagnosed after his first year of Kindergarten when the teacher couldn't figure out why he wouldn't focus. (Both sons repeated Kindergarten for reasons I won't get into here.) We refused to put him on meds until after 4th grade when the teachers sat us down and told us that what they were doing to help him up 'til that point was simply not working anymore. I'll give you a quick description of what a child with ADD goes through. If I give the child without ADD a list of 3 things to be done, they all get done. If I give the ADD child 3 things to get done, the first will be done, the second might get done and the third NEVER gets done. It's not that he doesn't want to do them, he simply loses focus after the first task. He is an exceptionally bright child, who has no behavioral problems in or out of school....he just needs support to stay on task. The boys are now 15 and are both A/B students (with an occasional C) and they are both working on becoming Eagle Scouts....so obviously the meds are helping!

Willowcreek and I knew of our son's ADD long before the thought of school ever began. We had to sleep in shifts, because (as Dee calls him) Mr Air Force slept no more than 3 or 4 hours a day, and was up and wanting to play in the wee hours of the morning. Dee was at that time a stay at home mom, and I was an Army recruiter with an impossible schedule. When Dave was around 4 years old, we met an unusual Army doctor who ran an EEG on Dave and diagnosed him with severe ADD. He recommended some books to read up on, and advised us (very unusual for doctor) not to put Dave on any type of medication.

We read the books. It dealt a lot with nutrition, additives and preservatives found in almost all foods sold in the market. But it went even deeper than that. We learned that a hyper-active child sees things differently than we do.... literally. Take fluorescent lights for example; the difference between fluorescent and incandescent lights is a flicker. Fluorescent lights flicker on and off at a rate of speed normal eyes can't detect. It goes from light to dark faster than a person without a hyper-active disorder can see, yet the kid with this problem literally can see. Now, why does this make a difference? Simply put, it's the activity. Like noises. The louder the activity, the more hyper the child becomes. Bowling alleys are the worst, what with the noise of the balls striking the pins and the pin action itself. White chalk plays a factor in setting off hyper activity, as believe it or not, menthol from cigarettes. What we did was clean out our kitchen, and go to either growing our own vegetables or buying from farmer's markets. Dee stopped smoking menthol cigarettes. We bought yellow chalk (this was when schools still used chalk boards) for our son's teachers and got to know the cafeteria employees very well. We managed to control the sugar intake even when he was eating lunch in school.

Holy crap, THAT is one of the most irritating things EVAR!

A lot of people with ADD are diagnosed with Sensory Integration Dysfunction.

A normal person's eyes register the flicker of fluorescent lights, and the brain goes, "not important, ignore," and filters it out.

For one of US, the brain doesn't have that "filter" in place -- we literally cannot ignore sensory stimuli, no matter how insignificant.

I, personally, cannot handle exposure to fluorescent lighting, it gives me migraines accompanied by the huge wave of anxiety at not being able to "filter" that flicker, holy crap there are people around me, so many noises, Jesus Christ how do you people handle it?!

I think there's a huge overlap in the two conditions, and it would be interesting to know how many co-diagnoses there are.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:32 am

Davelaw wrote:he would make himself feel better by seeing the moon-but whateever action he took -would not in and of itself make him feel better but only be one of several means to end

the means itself is emotion neutral-he would felt just as good if he had moved his space ship to getter a better view

so why did he choose to blow up Earth instead of moving his space ship?

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Re: Bad People

Post by Daldianus on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:35 am

WMDKitty wrote:Why do good people sometimes feel like the "bad guy"?

For example, an abuser is entirely to blame for his behavior, and feels no guilt. But the victim often feels that it is her fault, and feels guilty for his actions.

What is this paradox?

Abusers may not be able to empathize.

The victims often are much more sensitive and a lot of them may have the urge to blame themselves, because that at least would be a rational reason. Becoming a victim for no obvious reason at all may be felt as worse?

Although in my opinion victims who feel that they're to blame suffer from very low self-esteem etc and probably have suffered this for quite some time.

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Re: Bad People

Post by HappyKweer on Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:28 pm

WMDKitty wrote:Why do good people sometimes feel like the "bad guy"?

For example, an abuser is entirely to blame for his behavior, and feels no guilt. But the victim often feels that it is her fault, and feels guilty for his actions.

What is this paradox?

Because in some cases, we, the abused, were trained from birth to carry the blame for the shortcomings of the abuser. It's a hard habit to break, too. Although I worked through my abuse issues years ago (ok, well most of 'em), last Friday while at work, I found myself beginning to wonder if maybe it would have been best if I had not touched anything. It wasn't my fault, but old habits die hard. If you have been trained from birth that everything is your fault, it is relatively easy to assume no matter what happens, it MUST be your fault.

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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:55 pm

There is also the People Pleaser problem. A lot of women were raised to try to please everyone and if they fail to do that, even though it is an impossible job, that's their fault (oh the guilt) and they need to try harder until they do. If someone is mean to you, you must have done something to deserve it. Try harder!

Plus there is the Fixer syndrome. I thought I was supposed to fix everything and everyone around me. When someone behaved badly and abusively, I felt if I could only come up with the right words then the person would change their behavior. So... it's my fault!

I am so glad that I got a little more rational about it. Smile

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Re: Bad People

Post by wmdkitty on Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:00 pm

Yeah. The realization that I was NOT the problem was... freeing, to say the least. Doesn't stop the guilts and the "should haves".
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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:01 pm

Whats the deal with guilt? Where does guilt play into someone's life? John talks about guilt & his mother all in one sentence. My own mother was a worry wort, & I guess she carried around guilt for both of us. Her decisions, her experiences, her should have's & could have's, she had her own crosses to bear. Me? I can't relate to that at all. I don't 'DO' GUILT in my life or anyone else's.

However there is alot of False Guilt running amuck, Kitty!
This false guilt can be equally destructive, if not more so. Feeling guilty for events which are out of our control is often unproductive and detrimental.

Now I agree with the FALSE guilt thing...so Kitty...chin up girly...
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Re: Bad People

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:36 am

After I started my practice, I had to develop a mantra. It's not all about me.

So repeat with me, everyone, it's not all about me.

all
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Re: Bad People

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:29 pm

I like that mantra ALL, I think I may use it

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Re: Bad People

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:47 pm

Psychologically speaking, we're all totally inherently egocentric and have to slowly move away from that as we age.









(Some people never do.)

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Re: Bad People

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:54 pm

Actually, the mantra I've found most useful over the decade-plus I've been online is, "It's ooooonly a message board. It's ooooonly a message board." [Repeat until personal calm is restored.]

That one's gotten a real workout on a couple of our threads just lately.

Certainly would be progress if human beings could reach the point of being nice to each other a majority of the time, wouldn't it?
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Re: Bad People

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:15 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Psychologically speaking, we're all totally inherently egocentric and have to slowly move away from that as we age.









(Some people never do.)

I prefer "as we mature" I refuse to age and I refuse to grow up too......so there .....
.........


And you're right ...some people never do.

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Re: Bad People

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:35 pm

How about 'as we ripen?' Laughing

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Re: Bad People

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:44 pm

Just so we don't get overripe.
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Re: Bad People

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:11 pm

Razz When over ripened we'd be useless! Smashed up for apple pies, or banana nut breads! Hmmm, not bad maybe!

No its not all about me, myself, & I. But, there is SELF assurance, SELF responsibility, & SELF preservation & SELF respect! If we loose the self within us, we start seeking other ways & other people to make us happy, make us feel safe, maybe we'll even be loved. Then when all that capsizes, it becomes anger & blaming everyone, everything, & then it becomes common place for excuses. After the excuses, comes "I can't." I can't do this, I can't do that...its a hideous cycle of self deprivation!
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Re: Bad People

Post by gillyflower on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:13 pm

LOL I don't agree that we move away from being egocentric. In my younger years I was all about the kids, to the detriment of myself, I think. Now it's All About Me and I'm really enjoying it.

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Re: Bad People

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:13 pm

Apple pies and banana bread, mmmmmmmm
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Re: Bad People

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:14 pm

gillyflower wrote:LOL I don't agree that we move away from being egocentric. In my younger years I was all about the kids, to the detriment of myself, I think. Now it's All About Me and I'm really enjoying it.

I'm pretty sure that you are still capable of looking outside yourself though. I just have that feeling.
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Re: Bad People

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