The Bad Place...

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The Bad Place...

Post by gillyflower on Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:28 pm

Some of us have afterlives, some don't. For those who believe in an afterlife, what happens to the people who were bad during their lives? Bad as in breaking the cultural or religious laws.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:42 pm

Well from what I understand the repercussions for breaking religious and cultural laws as far as CR's go is essentially,

1. Death (self explanatory)
2. Dishonour.

There is nothing like a hell, limbo or other places to perform penance or atone for a poorly lived life. Death comes but once, but a dishonoured reputation can last for generations.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:14 pm

You have to really excel at being an idiot to get into Nastrond. Most people really aren't that exceptionally evil. If you earned your way into Nastrond, well, we would have taken time out of our afterlife to kill you slowly twice daily anyway, so really no loss.

Most failed lives are just that. Failure is punished by what it is. You lived as a loser; your punishment is, well, your already a loser what else could really top that? Exceptional virtue won great reward in the god's own halls, well lived men and women are welcomed warmly in Hel's hall, while those who were less deserving in life will have to work harder to earn acceptance after death. The worst of the worst earned the punishment of Nastrond, but if it wasn't the gods, there would be the family of those they wronged sharpening axes and heating irons to settle accounts, so their punishment is less about them, then helping the families of those they hurt move on by justice obviously trumping any desire for the less worthy vengeance.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:38 pm

I believe in part some end up where they fear they will go. I do not believe there is a literal hell, but I believe there are places in the nether world that one would best be away from.

I also believe that if one does go where they fear they will go, they can be rescued, perhaps by a shaman or the awakening or knowledge they are not really trapped there by anything, but their own fears and doubts, in their worthiness to be in a better place.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by Mintie on Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:22 am

I don't believe in the Hell of the Christians. An all loving, all forgiving God would never do that IMO. I think that people who have a dark soul simply don't go to the ''Other side''. I think they go right back to live a life until they have learned how to open their heart to others.
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by gillyflower on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:30 am

Yesterday I had a man I'd been helping with his genealogy tell me - you see how hot it is today? That's just a taste of what it's going to be like. Think about it. That's your lesson for today.

Obviously, this man believes in a Christian hell, it's going to be hot there, and he thinks he needs to warn everyone about it because even people who are helping him and being very nice to him and his wife (me) are in danger of going there. It really makes me wonder who he thinks his god is going to torture for eternity and why he thinks that's a good thing. He had a grin on his face when he was telling me this. This was Good News.

I don't know if there is a Bad Place or not. If my Gods thought it was something I need to worry about, I'm sure they would tell me.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:38 am

gillyflower wrote:Yesterday I had a man I'd been helping with his genealogy tell me - you see how hot it is today? That's just a taste of what it's going to be like. Think about it. That's your lesson for today.

Obviously, this man believes in a Christian hell, it's going to be hot there, and he thinks he needs to warn everyone about it because even people who are helping him and being very nice to him and his wife (me) are in danger of going there. It really makes me wonder who he thinks his god is going to torture for eternity and why he thinks that's a good thing. He had a grin on his face when he was telling me this. This was Good News.

I don't know if there is a Bad Place or not. If my Gods thought it was something I need to worry about, I'm sure they would tell me.

With regards to "Good News".. it's like this...

Missionary: "... and that's why you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior."

Eskimo: "Would I go to hell if I never heard of Jesus?"

Missionary: "No... not if you never heard of him."

Eskimo: "They why did you tell me?!"

Yep... that's some "Good News" alright.. Rolling Eyes

Rob

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:02 am

gillyflower wrote:Yesterday I had a man I'd been helping with his genealogy tell me - you see how hot it is today? That's just a taste of what it's going to be like. Think about it. That's your lesson for today.

Obviously, this man believes in a Christian hell, it's going to be hot there, and he thinks he needs to warn everyone about it because even people who are helping him and being very nice to him and his wife (me) are in danger of going there. It really makes me wonder who he thinks his god is going to torture for eternity and why he thinks that's a good thing. He had a grin on his face when he was telling me this. This was Good News.

I don't know if there is a Bad Place or not. If my Gods thought it was something I need to worry about, I'm sure they would tell me.

There are very twisted people in this world. I really don't think his god would approve. But I could be wrong. Like I said, twisted.
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:42 pm

gillyflower wrote:Yesterday I had a man I'd been helping with his genealogy tell me - you see how hot it is today? That's just a taste of what it's going to be like. Think about it. That's your lesson for today.

Obviously, this man believes in a Christian hell, it's going to be hot there, and he thinks he needs to warn everyone about it because even people who are helping him and being very nice to him and his wife (me) are in danger of going there. It really makes me wonder who he thinks his god is going to torture for eternity and why he thinks that's a good thing. He had a grin on his face when he was telling me this. This was Good News.

I don't know if there is a Bad Place or not. If my Gods thought it was something I need to worry about, I'm sure they would tell me.

I honestly don't know why you would care. From what I have seen and heard of you over the years it is about as relevant to you as the question of wether brontosaurs suffered backstrain. You are never going to be one, so the question will never really impact you.

If Yaweh is the sick sadist that some of his adherents think, then that is who they have chosen to cling to, and upon their own head be it. If Yaweh is the touchy-feely forgiving type his apologist try to sell, then the hellfire obsessed sadists are in for millennia long counseling sessions and group therapy with the Seraphim. Honestly I don't know which fate is worse, but both range from ironic to damned funny.

My own gods do not seem to worry much about who you worshiped, so much as how you lived, so any surprise endings received will be of the pleasant variety. Even then, they don't poach on those who are elsewhere sworn. Whatever gods or goddesses have your service will know you as their own, will claim you as the prize that you are.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:10 am

I don't care what anyone else believes or that they privately think that I'm going to their hell or that my haircut is bad. What I privately think of some other people, their clothing and personal habits is sometimes best kept to myself, too.

It's the yawning chasm between what they think is socially acceptable for them to say to other people and what I think is socially acceptable or appropriate in a professional setting. They obviously think that it is okay to make IMO inappropriate religious comments to people who are serving them in a professional capacity. I think that it's bad manners, plain and simple.

He took advantage of me and the thing is, he thought it was okay to do it. Imagine his face if I'd reversed the scenario and told him that he was going to my hell! He'd have complained about my behavior to my boss.

I just am surprised when I run across a Christian who thinks that good people are going to be tortured by their god for eternity and don't think about what that says about their god and their own sense of right and wrong.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by Gwyddion9 on Mon May 11, 2009 11:24 pm

Speaking for myself, I don’t believe in hell or the
Christian belief in a place called hell.


My belief is that you go to the Summerland and deal with the
past life, review it, rest, heal and prepare for the next life. I don’t think
you escape the evils of your last life but rather learn from them deal with consequences of those actions.
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by maya3 on Tue May 12, 2009 8:17 am

I think that if you have had a really terrible life where you have been very mean and hurt people, you go straight back and start all over again, for hundreds and hundreds more years.
If you have been extremely evil you may start as a plankton again and may have to have body for millions of years, or billions.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by gillyflower on Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:37 am

Okay, and do these plankton know just how they went wrong in the previous life? How valuable is that if the baby doesn't realize that it is being sent back to the beginning because of what it did in a previous life, that's always been my question.

I realize that the eastern religions don't look at reincarnation the same way as the west does, that it isn't a punishment for acts done, but it does look like it. If you are threatened with being sent back to the beginning because of your actions then it is a threat, just like being sent to hell because of bad actions in this life is a threat. In the one case however, you won't know if you are a new soul just starting out or an old soul that has been a bad, bad boy or girl. I would think that it would make more sense for a person to at least know where they went wrong. I can also understand that a person who doesn't know they are being punished, will turn into a different person, perhaps, with different experiences - maybe. In my generation, we believed that environment (and experiences) were everything, in rebellion to what was believed before that genetics was everything, but I have come to believe that environment is only part of the factor. I wonder how a person could commit horrendous acts against other people in this life without showing a hint of that in previous lives.

Ed to add: I guess what I am getting at here is I've never understood how, in this system, horrific actions occur, or why people wouldn't be stopped before they do them because smaller bad actions in a previous life would send them back to animal status. I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that a soul suddenly decides to go bad or not.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by maya3 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:55 am

It's not so much of a threat, it's just simply cause and effect.
It wouldn't be very beneficial for the universe to "use" you (for lack of a better word) if you are extremely destructive, and one way to reuse the energy of this evil person would be to have the energy go to a place where he/she can't cause much damage.
Then the part of the ONE who is a plankton instead of a person will have time to evolve until he/she figures out that he/she doesn't have to be attached to a bodily form but can become enlightened and realize he/she is the same as God.


I agree with you though, that a person probably had some stuff happening in their past life that were not the best behavior, I think most people evolve forward in almost all cases, even though I'm Hindu I think it's very unlikely that you will be an animal in your next life unless you choose it. Or unless what you have done is SO bad so what I wrote above happens.

So yes I also think that you can do bad stuff in several lifetimes as a human before you start to realize that you might want to take another path.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:23 am

gillyflower wrote:I wonder how a person could commit horrendous acts against other people in this life without showing a hint of that in previous lives.

Good point, Gilly. I think that there will be some indication in previous lives of say a Ted Bundy in this lifetime just as we have talents and gifts which are the result of virtuous actions.

However, while there may be strong past life influences leading us to do great good or evil, I believe it all comes down to the choices we make in this lifetime. Any one choice may lead in a different direction although it takes great determination and persistence to follow up on a dramatic change in behavior. All the more reason to behave as well and kindly as we possibly can toward others. You never know when you might be an influence that will change someone's life toward goodness.

Ed to add: I guess what I am getting at here is I've never understood how, in this system, horrific actions occur, or why people wouldn't be stopped before they do them because smaller bad actions in a previous life would send them back to animal status.

Smaller bad actions, such as being an extremely controlling parent as opposed to being a serial killer, result in some restrictions in a subsequent lifetime that leave open options to balance what was done. It's only the very evil acts that result in definite restrictions being placed in near future lifetimes so as to limit the person's ability to choose evil again. For instance, that controller might be reborn as a person who is extremely shy and lives a lifetime feeling unloved and unnoticed by others. The serial killer may be reborn with birth defects that severely restrict movement and interaction with others.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that a soul suddenly decides to go bad or not.

I don't know. I think, as I said above, that a horrific act could not only be the result of a series of choices made by the person in that lifetime but perhaps also the result of an accumulation of failures to progress spiritually over a series of lifetimes. Just as a child raised in a bad environment is more likely to turn out bad but might not given a particular choice or influence that turns the person's life in a different direction, the potential is always there for the person to make a choice or choices that result in balancing out the evils that were previously done rather than committing still more.

::::: shrugs emphatically :::: This is just what I've come to believe after much study and meditation. I could easily be way mistaken, but these beliefs enable me to be somewhat kinder and more directly responsible than I was as a Christian. Maybe delusions do that for people, ya s'pose? cyclops

[I see that I pretty much agree with Maya despite my being a "beliefs freelancer." GMTA ]
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:25 am

Makes sense to me, Maya.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by maya3 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:52 am

The soul is not bad. The soul is the same as god.

But people who do bad things are not in touch with their true self (God) and therefore may do things that they would never ever do if they really knew who they were.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:45 pm

The question remains, I think, whether the man who smiled broadly when he told Gilly that the hot weather was just a hint of what it would be like intended to manipulate her into adopting his beliefs, was simply passing along a warning of something he felt sure could happen or believed this was a kindly reminder. Even though such gratuitous remarks annoy me, I usually respond to something like this with a hearty "God forbid!" and attempt to redirect the conversation. (Which slyly leaves unclear whether I hope god forbids my thinking about it or going there.)

Back before practically every place had air conditioning and we'd all be sitting around hoping we didn't melt, my mother used to joke that if we thought this weather was hot, imagine what hell must be like.

It's often difficult, I believe, for people with very structured beliefs to consider that a remark of that type is unlikely to be welcomed by those not sharing their beliefs. I quit a club once because the majority of its members were Christians eager to advise someone in troubling circumstances to "Turn to Jesus." This wasn't a religious organization, and the non-Christians among us felt somewhat discounted when we'd reply that we weren't Christian and didn't find such remarks appropriate only to be told in pitying tones, "Oh, well, Jesus loves you anyway." We complained to the officers who said that we should "just understand these people mean well." I and several others quit.
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by DotNotInOz on Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:52 pm

maya3 wrote:The soul is not bad. The soul is the same as god.

I sometimes think of the soul as the teacher being tuned out by the student (personality). Just as students may ignore a teacher and fail the test, the personality may fail to heed the promptings of the soul.

The teacher isn't bad. It's just that the student isn't ready or willing to learn.
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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by maya3 on Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:16 pm

Dot,

I sometimes think of the soul as the teacher being tuned out by the
student (personality). Just as students may ignore a teacher and fail
the test, the personality may fail to heed the promptings of the soul.

The teacher isn't bad. It's just that the student isn't ready or willing to learn.

Exactly!

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:57 am

In some religions souls who've committed horrendously evil go to a place called the Outer Darkness. Where they suffer for all eternity by not being able to have contact with other souls. It's something like total isolation. And one thing that also will get you condemned to the Outer Darkness ( as I've been ) is to be ex-communicated for calling the President/Prophet a liar & saying he doesn't speak for God.

Personally I don't believe in any kind of eternal punishment. And I believe that not one religion knows what the next life will be like. I also believe personally that we'll all be very surprised by whom we find/meet in the next life. I myself fully expect to see each & everyone of you in the next life. I personally believe that in the next life we'll find out what PURE LOVE is.

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Re: The Bad Place...

Post by gillyflower on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:46 am

If there is such a thing as a soul, (this is what I believe at this moment, all subject to change and refinement), then I believe that it has personality, flaws and talents (a mixture of light and dark) that make it unique in the universe. Because of that, it will have it's own unique problems in each life if there is such a thing as reincarnation.

Because I don't put a lot of emphasis on the individual, I would have to say I think that our reason to continue to keep coming back would be to further help the Divine evolve in the direction it wishes to go. There must be a benefit to the Divine that (if we are reincarnations) we don't remember past lives, good or bad. We start with a clean slate, every life. The soul's job is to support/create the next generation and help the world (part of the Divine) move a little bit in the direction it is going. We are here to make the world a little better, and we either succeed with that or we fail, each life time, then try again. It is our job.

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