Embracing the Lord's Prayer

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:41 pm

Rationalize? Christian? Perish the thought!

Ignore, that's the ticket!

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:35 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Wow, SeventhCrow.. . . . I can see how my post looks that way. Please hallucinate away, for it was definitely not meant as an insult! Smile

This is all very fascinating, though, because growing up in the Christian church, with the "only ONE God" as the center of the theology, this information is quite damaging to that ideology. I wonder how the typical Christian pastor rationalizes it?

Devon, if you go to the site I gave you, you will see in the very beginning "Do Not Watch, Unless You Believe Lies." Through the centuries, Christianity has made it a priority to convince it's believers, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that anything other than canon are lies meant to defame their religion. Therefore already having been indoctrinated from birth, they simply pass it off as being the devil's work meant to deceive believers. Anything else is heresy.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by AutumnalTone on Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:47 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Wow, SeventhCrow.. . . . I can see how my post looks that way. Please hallucinate away, for it was definitely not meant as an insult! Smile

This is all very fascinating, though, because growing up in the Christian church, with the "only ONE God" as the center of the theology, this information is quite damaging to that ideology. I wonder how the typical Christian pastor rationalizes it?

Don't know about how a typical pastor would respond. I do know there are Christian ministers who have studied the history and are still happily Christian. That suggests that they've found some way to respond. Whether it's through simple denial, acceptance of the actual history while still operating on the mythic history, or some other thought process, I don't know. I know what I would think of as the essentials of Christianity wouldn't be much affected by it.

I can speculate as to how the pastors at my childhood church would react--and most of them wouldn't react well, I think. Sad, really.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:52 pm

I've been mainly lurking here for awhile. But I want to say that I'm enjoying the basic civility being shown to those who hold different views. This is very refreshing.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:55 pm

Warlords, we keep trying to have knock out, drag down fights, but everyone is too loveable Very Happy Group Hug

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by AutumnalTone on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:31 pm

John A. Cancienne wrote:I know that Muslims trace their lineage back to Abraham through Ishmael, and that he was married to a woman from a nomadic sect and was not considered Hebrew. Could this also include them (Muslims) as having Canaanite ancestry as well?

I don't think so, as Islam arose among the Arabs. I've no idea if their tracing of lineage is historical. It may be, though I suspect if it is, it involved an Israelite/Canaanite traveling to Arab lands and settling into Arab culture--Arab origins would still be totally unrelated to the Canaanites.

That's like Adam's boy Cain taking up with the people of the land of Nod. The people of Nod are not descendants of Adam, taken as a whole, despite his bloodline joining from the marriage of Cain with a woman from Nod.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:36 pm

SeventhCrow wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:I know that Muslims trace their lineage back to Abraham through Ishmael, and that he was married to a woman from a nomadic sect and was not considered Hebrew. Could this also include them (Muslims) as having Canaanite ancestry as well?

I don't think so, as Islam arose among the Arabs. I've no idea if their tracing of lineage is historical. It may be, though I suspect if it is, it involved an Israelite/Canaanite traveling to Arab lands and settling into Arab culture--Arab origins would still be totally unrelated to the Canaanites.

That's like Adam's boy Cain taking up with the people of the land of Nod. The people of Nod are not descendants of Adam, taken as a whole, despite his bloodline joining from the marriage of Cain with a woman from Nod.

Which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. If Adam and Eve were the so called first couple, and Cain moves to Nod and marries a woman from there; where the hell did those "other" people come from..... I get migraines trying to figure all of this out. What a Face

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:57 am

John A. Cancienne wrote:
SeventhCrow wrote:
John A. Cancienne wrote:I know that Muslims trace their lineage back to Abraham through Ishmael, and that he was married to a woman from a nomadic sect and was not considered Hebrew. Could this also include them (Muslims) as having Canaanite ancestry as well?

I don't think so, as Islam arose among the Arabs. I've no idea if their tracing of lineage is historical. It may be, though I suspect if it is, it involved an Israelite/Canaanite traveling to Arab lands and settling into Arab culture--Arab origins would still be totally unrelated to the Canaanites.

That's like Adam's boy Cain taking up with the people of the land of Nod. The people of Nod are not descendants of Adam, taken as a whole, despite his bloodline joining from the marriage of Cain with a woman from Nod.

Which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. If Adam and Eve were the so called first couple, and Cain moves to Nod and marries a woman from there; where the hell did those "other" people come from..... I get migraines trying to figure all of this out. What a Face

That's why you confuse the door-to-door Bible salesmen when you tell them you are one of The Other People. Very Happy
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Guest on Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:14 am

Actually, the story of Cain & the people of Nod could be taken as approving of incest. Because the standard answer you get from Christians is that the people of Nod were also A & E's children. Oh the tangled web they weave. Gotta go for now. It's bill paying time.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:02 am

warlord is correct. The standard christian response is that Cain married his sister, because "back then, the genes were pure enough, . . . and soon after it was forbidden because of genetic abnormality problems". It is, of course, a HUGE copout on their part. The bible never stated incest as "medically a bad idea", but as "an abonimation", . . . which means exactly that. AND, if it is an abomination to God (who remains unchanged) at ONE point in history, . . . it will be so in ANY point in history, including the time of "Adam and Eve", . . . which means that God, in order to have a human population, created ONLY a "sinful way to do it". It is complicated, a bit.

However, we all know that the story is metaphorical at best, and most likely a "children's story" that somehow made it's way into religious writings as a literal event.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:36 pm

DeavonReye wrote:
However, we all know that the story is metaphorical at best, and most likely a "children's story" that somehow made it's way into religious writings as a literal event.

I agree with you that it's metaphorical; however, I think what the story represents is the understanding the ancients had that powerful spiritual truths are often more easily conveyed and understood if expressed by means of a story. So, I'd disagree that it's a children's story unless you mean that in the sense of the writer's seeking to "tap into" the child-like love of hearing a good story that has something important to say, which seems to be a human characteristic.

I don't think that the writer would have considered the account of Adam and Eve to be any less true because the events therein obviously aren't literal. Instead, their expulsion from the Garden of Eden expresses the human wish that we didn't have to die, that people needn't work so hard just to survive and that women didn't have to experience such pain in giving birth. All these are mentioned as "results" of Adam and Eve's having gotten uppity and eaten the fruit of the Tree. So, there's also an element of obeying authority figures for your own good even when you'd rather not. One could also say there's an underlying moral of being satisfied where you are with what you have there instead of wanting something different out of the thrill of the unknown.

The story of Cain's killing Abel illustrates in one aspect not to be a fraud. Abel's gift is approved by God because Abel chose the best animal from his flock while Cain picked some crops that weren't the best and tried to pass them off as worthy sacrifices. Maybe the message was intended to be, "See what happens to cheats and frauds?"

As for when all these stories began to be regarded as accounts of actual events, who knows? I've often wondered how the Greeks or Romans perceived their myths. I've read that the intellectuals and upper classes in both cultures generally regarded religion along the lines of Marx's calling it an "opiate for the masses." So, perhaps those with wealth and power had no need to believe that there were any supernatural beings to be placated by human offerings. Primarily the less fortunate gave credence to the existence of gods who might choose to intervene in their lives.

Frankly, I think my interpretation makes more sense than the common belief that these myths and their religions were the beliefs of people much less sophisticated and enlightened than we are today.

We still believe some pretty silly stuff, IMO.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by AutumnalTone on Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:38 pm

Nah, it's not a children's story and I suspect it's a bit disrespectful to categorize it in that fashion.

It's part of an origins myth, and it shows how the in-group came to be and mentions also that there is an out-group (which there has to be to have an in-group). It's the Israelite tale of how they, as a people, came to be favored by the gods (later pared to only one) and indirectly classifying others (the people of Nod, standing in for outsiders) as not favored.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:08 pm

No offense intended, but I was raised to believe it was a children's story, and it was not intended to insult the author of said story, or any religion . Children's stories often have a moral or special allegorical meaning, meant to teach.

My family was Christian , both sides of the isle, Catholic and Protestant.
But the Jewish people I am friends with find the story allegorical, so it being a teaching story seems appropriate.
Not so much a "where we come from", as "how we developed, intellectually."

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:42 am

Okay. A little laughter is overdue here. In todays Family Circus cartoon. Billy is saying his prayers. " and forgive us our tresspasses & lead us into ninety-two temptations."

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by gillyflower on Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:33 am

LOL Give me those 92 temptations!

I think that people 2,000 years ago weren't that much different than we are today. There would be the people who believe everything they are told, and if you look around they are still with us. Yesterday I had a man in the library who was certain that mermaids existed, for example. There would be people who recognize that not everything someone else says is true and still takes pleasure in a good story.

There was no television or movies 2,000 years ago and not that many scrolls or books, at least for the masses. The entertainment and mode of teaching was through an oral tradition for the most part. People told stories. The best stories got retold to the members of other cultures with the names and gods and monsters changed. If you look at the stories from different cultures and religions you will see that. The Greek myths were borrowed all over the place and are still being borrowed from today. Not that they are "pure." I'm sure they did their fair share of borrowing.

The stories entertained and taught lessons that were important to that culture and/or religion. They provided a shared pool of stories and characters which enabled short cuts in discussions. Few people today think that Star Wars or Lord of the Rings is real but still those stories are beloved by our culture and provide shortcuts to understanding. In two thousand years do you think they will be discussing if we thought they were real?

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:47 pm

I want to work in your libary.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Beribee on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:11 pm

Awesome point, Gilly!

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by LeahOne on Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:37 am

SeventhCrow wrote:Nah, it's not a children's story and I suspect it's a bit disrespectful to categorize it in that fashion.

It's part of an origins myth, and it shows how the in-group came to be and mentions also that there is an out-group (which there has to be to have an in-group). It's the Israelite tale of how they, as a people, came to be favored by the gods (later pared to only one) and indirectly classifying others (the people of Nod, standing in for outsiders) as not favored.

SCrow, speaking as on raised in that very tradition - NO. We are not taught that YHVH 'favors' us and 'disfavors' other nations. Such an attitude is NOT part of how I was raised in any religious context.

The POINT of the A&E story is a kind of 'just so' version of humanity's origins. As such, the important lesson for Jews to learn is 1) We are ALL descended of the same pair, the same couple - so nobody's ancestry is ultimately any better than anyone else's. and 2)If either Adam or Chava had ceased to exist, the human race would never have been. THAT is how important *EVERY* human being is.

It should be obvious from the C&A story that like Abel our ancestors were herders and not farmers. BUT the explanation for YHVH's preference is that Abel made a true sacrifice in giving up his very best, the 'first fruits', to YHVH. Whereas Cain just ''donated' whatever, without examining it - jus going through the motions. I was taught this story as a model of 'true kavanah', true intent/focus/dedication in prayer. NOT (as too many a Christian would do!) "LOOK at the trouble Cain got into!", but simply as 'going through the motions is not enough to count: you have to know what you're praying, and mean it' .

And this was also related to me as a lesson on 'charity' - that what we give to 'the poor' ought to be stuff we would eat or wear ourselves. That we should not allow ourselves to ever think 'they should be grateful to be getting anything'.....

Perhaps you are right about an 'original' intent, way way back when my ancestors were coming together from what's now the West Bank (!), coming up from Egypt, wandering in from Ur....and beginning to coalesce into 'the Jewish People'. I'm just informing you of how it was taught about by some Jews in the US in the '50's and '60's.....and also in the '90's : )) By chatting with other Jews, I've been able to affirm that the above was a pretty 'mainstream' understanding of the lessons of early chapters of B'rashit (Genesis)...NB: At NO TIME is there any serious discussion of 'the Fall' or anything approaching the Christian emphasis of the A&E story. Nor is there serious discussion of these chapters as anything BUT an allegory. And yes, I think if you were to ask the Rabbis about incest in this story, they'd explain that it's an allegory about how Jews view the world and in no way intended as a literal 'history'. AND there's some midrashim (rabbinic exegesis) about Adam having a 'first wife', and so forth, trying to explain the obvious flaw in the original myth (as well as 'reconciling' the two Genesis accounts)

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:34 pm

I don't believe that we are all descended from the same pair, but that doesn't mean that any of us are any better than any other. We're a bunch of animals, we shouldn't elevate ourselves that way.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by AutumnalTone on Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:00 pm

LeahOne wrote:
SeventhCrow wrote:Nah, it's not a children's story and I suspect it's a bit disrespectful to categorize it in that fashion.

It's part of an origins myth, and it shows how the in-group came to be and mentions also that there is an out-group (which there has to be to have an in-group). It's the Israelite tale of how they, as a people, came to be favored by the gods (later pared to only one) and indirectly classifying others (the people of Nod, standing in for outsiders) as not favored.

SCrow, speaking as on raised in that very tradition - NO. We are not taught that YHVH 'favors' us and 'disfavors' other nations. Such an attitude is NOT part of how I was raised in any religious context.

All origins myths work to that end. It's nothing unique to Jewish history. Plus, there's nothing inherently bad about somebody not having favor with the in group's gods--they have their own gods with whom they are in favor. And being "not in favor" has no negative connotations, in most instances--it simply denotes being of a different group.

And, as I didn't mention anything about Christianity's reading "The Fall of Mankind" into the tale, I'll leave off discussion of that to anybody who did. I think the notion of "The Fall" is absurd, at best, so I suspect we agree on that.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by LeahOne on Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:00 pm

OK, how many apologies dos that make which I owe you, SCrow? : ))

I really should 'decompress' a bit longer after reading 'over there' anymore....between Nancy Nojoy calling me a descendant of her Devil and LUVsonlyherself claiming I'm an antichrist, I seem to wind up a bit TOO 'defensive' : ((

My apologies for not being able to properly evaluate your comments: I should have waited longer so my head might have cleared!

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by AutumnalTone on Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:03 pm

LeahOne wrote:OK, how many apologies dos that make which I owe you, SCrow? : ))

None that I'm aware, lady. you're not hurting my little feelers by offering up goodies about Judaism. I enjoy learning about it. I'm quite enamored of the very early history of the Israelites, as you can probably guess, and the later teachings surrounding the early history are also interesting.

And if you respond to somebody else alongside a response to me, I figure it's nothing personal to me and is a simple conflation of discussions. No big deal. Should I wish to continue the discussion, I can point out what applies to me and what doesn't; no big deal.

Edit: Oh, I've not been back to the other place since gutting my profile. I find that I don't miss it at all. Could be fewer ulcers in your future if you spend less time there, I think.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by TPaine on Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:07 am

LeahOne wrote:OK, how many apologies dos that make which I owe you, SCrow? : ))

I really should 'decompress' a bit longer after reading 'over there' anymore....between Nancy Nojoy calling me a descendant of her Devil and LUVsonlyherself claiming I'm an antichrist, I seem to wind up a bit TOO 'defensive' : ((

My apologies for not being able to properly evaluate your comments: I should have waited longer so my head might have cleared!

Hi Leah,
Although I find her views abominable, I do have to give Nancy NoJoy credit for one thing. In order to attack what she says, I've had to study not only Christian Identity which is hard on the stomach, but also books about the New Testament, especially those written by Dr. Bart D Erhman, Phd, who is chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina. Two books that have helped me in countering Nancy's posts are Misquoting Jesus, and Jesus Interrupted.
Actually, it's fun studying again. It's been years and at the time I was actually in school my major was history with an emphasis on the enlightenment period especially the late 18th and early 19th centuries in the US, which does little to help when discussing the first 2 - 4 centuries CE.
I also have to thank you for all you've taught me about Judaism in the debates with Nancy. Between you Bill Witt, and Bart Erhman, I just may learn enough to reach the point where I can give Ms. NoJoy a decent battle when it comes to actual facts.
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:14 am

I'm afraid that Nancy is a lost cause but I'm grateful to the rest of you for posting because it helps counter the CI movement very effectively. All the facts that you throw at her are good, but the real weight of your argument is in your very saneness and good mental health, your refusal to become hysterical in response to her hysteria, and willingness to call out bigotry. Every time one of you counter with humor and balance and tolerance, she (and CI) looks crazier and that is what will deal the death blows to her cause.

Can't stop the mentally unbalanced from flocking to be with their equally crazed brethren but at least one can make it unappetizing to the fence sitters to be tarred with the same brush.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Davelaw on Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:58 am

gillyflower wrote:I'm afraid that Nancy is a lost cause but I'm grateful to the rest of you for posting because it helps counter the CI movement very effectively. All the facts that you throw at her are good, but the real weight of your argument is in your very saneness and good mental health, your refusal to become hysterical in response to her hysteria, and willingness to call out bigotry. Every time one of you counter with humor and balance and tolerance, she (and CI) looks crazier and that is what will deal the death blows to her cause.

Can't stop the mentally unbalanced from flocking to be with their equally crazed brethren but at least one can make it unappetizing to the fence sitters to be tarred with the same brush.

if CI is still the demented american version of British Israelitism combined with anti-semetism- does it NOT fall under the weight of its own bullshit without any need to counter it ?
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