Embracing the Lord's Prayer

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Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:07 am

I don't know if anyone who is Christian can understand exactly how offensive I found this. My Christian sister didn't understand it. You know, I should stop reading the God Squad. The writers' armchair quarterbacking of non-JudeoChristian religions just raises my blood pressure too much.

Q: I was asked the question, "Can people of all religions say the
'Our Father?'" My answer, perhaps naive, is yes, because of the words
of this prayer. It comes from the Gospel given to us by Jesus, but one
that I feel people of all faiths could say together. What are your
thoughts? I view life as looking at what brings people together in
their beliefs, instead of what divides us. -- P., via godsquadquestion@aol.comA:
I taught Father Tom Hartman how to say the prayer over bread in Hebrew,
and he taught me how to say the Lord's Prayer, the Pater Noster in
Latin. It was not a fair trade. The Lord's Prayer is one of the most
perfect prayers ever written, and the prayer over bread, the motzi, is
--well -- a prayer over bread. The Lord's Prayer is found in two nearly
identical versions in the New Testament. The classic version (Matthew
6:9-13) reads:"After this manner, therefore, pray ye: Our Father
which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will
be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not
into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." (KJV)The version from Luke 11:2-5 reads:"And
he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven,
so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our
sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us
not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." (KJV)The Lord's Prayer is the most famous and most central prayer in Christianity and it is the Christian heart I love so dearly.As
to your question, Jews can pray this prayer. I do so myself, or when
others pray it, I answer "Amen," which means I trust it is true. I'm
comforted to be able to participate in some element of Christian
prayer, and thrilled that this element is not some peripheral, obscure,
or marginal prayer but one from the core of Christianity. That core is
directly echoed in many Jewish prayers. It begins with acknowledging
the sacredness of God's name. The Jewish prayer for the dead, the
kaddish, begins in exactly this way.The next spiritual move of
the prayer is trust that however broken the kingdoms of earth may be,
they will one day be swept up in the healing and peaceful kingdom of
God. This is trust in the future.Gandhi once said that to a
hungry man, God is bread, and so the part of the prayer asking God to
give us our daily bread is both a plea for simple sustenance and a
prayer asking for simple sustenance and not lavish selfishness.The
part asking God to forgive our sins is importantly paired with our
commitment to forgive those who sin against us. We cannot seek what we
will not grant.Temptation is the portal to sin. This is not a
spiritual truth alone, but also the truth of how we fail to find our
best selves. Buddhists call this temptation, tanha, which means
grasping at something that's only an illusion. The single greatest gift
of God is the inspiration to overcome our baser instincts.The
prayer concludes (in Matthew's version) with a prayerful admission of
God's sovereignty. This is one of the hallmarks of Judaism,
Christianity and Islam, which share this deep humility before God's
majesty and grace.I've often said that the mission of the God
Squad is to remind people that we know enough about how we're different
and not enough about how we're alike.

Source

No. No. No. We have other gods. Not yours. You can bite me. Mad
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:34 am

Yet another person who doesn't really understand what "all religions" mean.

Blow Up

all
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by ItsAllALie on Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:10 pm

I taught Father Tom Hartman how to say the prayer over bread in Hebrew,
and he taught me how to say the Lord's Prayer, the Pater Noster in
Latin. It was not a fair trade. The Lord's Prayer is one of the most
perfect prayers ever written, and the prayer over bread, the motzi, is
--well -- a prayer over bread.

Um,,,,,,,excuse me? Am I reading this wrong? Is he saying that CHRISTIAN prayers are for some reason MORE perfect than Jewish prayers?

Oh Please,,,,gag me with a spoon,,,,this guy seems to be implying that hes a Jew

As
to your question, Jews can pray this prayer. I do so myself, or when
others pray it, I answer "Amen," which means I trust it is true.

but I'm having a tough time believing it,,,,Who IS this dude,,,,,,he sounds more Christian than Jewish,,,,,

Sorry, the future jew in me had to react to that,,,,,

but more to your point,,,,,,the complete lack of respect for other faiths does tend to "leak out" somewhere, doesn't it?????

If he's Jewish, I'll be shocked right off my chair, frankly,,,,,,,but,,,,,yes, there ARE some bad Jews out there,,,,sigh,,,,we don't deny them. We pray for them,,,,,,and sick Jewish mother guilt on them Smile
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:31 pm

I don't think most Christian can understand it either, They don't seem to get that people are not going to pay homage to a god that is not their own.

Would they pray to Woten? Or Isis? Then why do they expect others to pray to their god?

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by ItsAllALie on Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:34 pm

sheesh, appears he IS a Jew,,,,

blows my mind,,,of course, I only see a small example of what he's writing,,,,,

and maybe I'm misunderstanding,,,,,,,but I don't like that quote of his,,,,,

It's one thing to say that there is nothing INHERINTLY ANTI OR UNJEWISH in the Lord's prayer,,,,

that is true,,,,,there isn't,,,,

It's another thing to suggest that Jewish prayers are inherintly LESS than this Christian prayer,,,

or that this prayer is for ALL people,,,,

I'm a bit stunned,,,,,I'd love to see what Leah has to say about this,,,,,
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:27 pm

you are correct Holly IMO

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:36 pm

MaineCaptain wrote:I don't think most Christian can understand it either, They don't seem to get that people are not going to pay homage to a god that is not their own.

Would they pray to Woten? Or Isis? Then why do they expect others to pray to their god?

They can pray to Woten all they want, he's still not forgiving any trespasses, you will still be judged by the whole of your deeds. He won't forgive my trespasses either, in fact being sworn his makes him expect a higher standard; less in my prayers than in my deeds.

The Lord's prayer is not to my god, nor is it about the heavens that I know, nor are the prayers to my gods of any worth to those who expect salvation and absolution; sorry not selling or buying. Faiths are not interchangable, I would no more expect Christ than Tchernoborg to hear a prayer raised to the Sigfather, nor would I dream that my god (one among many) holds dominion over this world and all its folk. There are goddesses and gods of worth and wisdom beyond Woten even in my own pantheon, and other pantheons whose might and holiness hold rightful sway over the spirits of places and souls of folk dear and sworn to them.

There is no one right way for all, most definitly including my own.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:41 pm

Very well written John, You are right, IMO.


I hope my words were not insulting to you or Woten, they were not intended to be.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:45 pm

I am so glad this is not just me. Mad
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Mintie on Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:47 pm

Haha, some would think that I'm hanging-out too much on this Forum because I understand why it would be offensive.

Some people think that the Abrahamic faiths are really ''all the religions''. And they don't bother to gather knowledge about all the other religions outside of those borders...a shame for them...

As for me, the Lord's prayer are really just words...unless you give it all you heart it means nothing, just words spoken out of habit. I prefer to make-up my own prayers
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:02 pm

Isn't that what Jesus warned about? Vain repitition?

Metaphysically speaking, I think it's an important prayer...for those who follow the teachings of Jesus.

Our father (the Divine) which art in heaven (within)...

But it's silly to say that those who have no interest in Jesus etc. should pray as he taught.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:11 am

MaineCaptain wrote:Very well written John, You are right, IMO.


I hope my words were not insulting to you or Woten, they were not intended to be.

Most definitly not. It was just too good an opening to point out that it is not a question of am I right, or are you right, but a much more subtle idea. Your or my knowing that we are right in our seperate faiths tells us nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the others, or any others, faith.

To be honest, the whole us/them right/wrong sloppy mental habit has to be fought as hard in the pagan community as in any other. We just have less doctrinal excuse for attempting it in the first place.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by Beribee on Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:14 pm

I went to a fundamentalist church services many, many years ago where the sermon was, in part, on the Lord's Prayer. They basically said right out that that prayer was not intended to be repeated, but that it was to be used as a guide to creating your own prayer. I found that interpretation to make more sense to me that just repeating it word for word....

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by jumbojava on Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:59 pm

Personally, I prefere these versions:

Source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm


The Prayer To Our Father (in the original Aramaic)


Abwûn
"Oh
Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,
d'bwaschmâja
who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

Nethkâdasch schmach
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Têtê malkuthach.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
just as on earth (that is material and dense).

Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna.
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna
daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên.

detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma)
like we let go the guilt of others.

Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),

ela patzân min bischa.
but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Amên.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)






<BLOCKQUOTE>
The Lords Prayer from the Original Aramaic

Translation by Neil Douglas-Klotz in Prayers of the Cosmos
O Birther! Father- Mother of the Cosmos
Focus your light within us - make it useful.
Create your reign of unity now-
through our fiery hearts and willing hands
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Help us love beyond our ideals
and sprout acts of compassion for all creatures.
Animate the earth within us: we then
feel the Wisdom underneath supporting all.
Untangle the knots within
so that we can mend our hearts' simple ties to each other.
Don't let surface things delude us,
But free us from what holds us back from our true purpose.
Out of you, the astonishing fire,
Returning light and sound to the cosmos.
Amen.



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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:44 pm

J.J. you are so wise, thank you for the post of the prayers

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by wontgetfooledagain on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:24 pm

J.J. is here!! WhooHoo!

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:46 pm

wontgetfooledagain wrote:J.J. is here!! WhooHoo!
My sentiments exactly!!

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by maya3 on Thu May 14, 2009 9:16 am

JJ,
I like those versions, they are beautiful.

Honestly I don't really understand what you guys found offensive with the first one? I think anyone who relates to any prayer can pray it. So if someone who is not christian relates to the lords prayer, go for it.

The only thing I don't like with that conversation is that they assume that ALL religions are Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
It really gets to me, I loved "The Faith Club" but the same there, they kept talking about how inclusive they had become, but completely ignoring all the other religions in the world.

Maya
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu May 14, 2009 11:45 am

I can only speak for myself, but there is nothing in the prayer itself that I found offensive. I may not agree with the prayers of others, but they aren't mine, so I don't care.

It was the idea that it was superior to other prayers, and all others should get behind it that I have a problem with it.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by maya3 on Thu May 14, 2009 11:56 am

All

It was the idea that it was superior to other prayers, and all others should get behind it that I have a problem with it.

Oh I see, I completely agree with that.
Thanks for clarifying it for me.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 14, 2009 5:52 pm

maya3 wrote:JJ,

The only thing I don't like with that conversation is that they assume that ALL religions are Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
It really gets to me, I loved "The Faith Club" but the same there, they kept talking about how inclusive they had become, but completely ignoring all the other religions in the world.

Maya

Yes, I joined at first and was their token Pagan, but they really didn't understand that not all religions were like the Abrahamic ones. They did not want to be told anything different either.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu May 14, 2009 5:56 pm

They seemed a bit better when I was there, but they still seemed to try and get Asatru to fit one of their mindsets. To compare my gods to theirs and look for similarities.

That bugs me almost as much.

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu May 14, 2009 7:12 pm

I missed something. What is "The Faith Club?" confused
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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu May 14, 2009 7:22 pm

I had never heard of them either. scratch

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Re: Embracing the Lord's Prayer

Post by gillyflower on Thu May 14, 2009 7:33 pm

Over at Bnet, they had a group called the Faith Club.

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