Things God Did Not Create

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:42 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

Worse. The opium of the nations. That's the least probable "place" to find God.

Ben
Are you only looking for Yahweh?

All my life I have been trying to catch God at His work of creation. And not out of religion but as a way of life.

Ben


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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:00 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Point of order here: I don't have a creator god, and I suspect All doesn't either.

Well, fair enough. If there was not a Creator for the universe, how did it come about? From the time of Aristotle, Cosmolosgists used to claim that the universe was eternal. Without beginning and without end. That it had always been there. In 1822, Lamaitre came up with the theory of the big bang as the origin of the universe. It happens that, for about 4000 years, the Bible has been saying that the universe had a beginning. (Gen. 1:1) Now, the Cosmologists had no option but to admit that's true. The universe did have a beginning with the big bang. If the big bang gave origin to the universe, the big bang of what? What was there to cause the big bang?

Ben

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:06 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.

Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

I disagree.

What makes you so sure the gods and demigods of the Olympian gods are dead?

I would say that the vast majority of Christians have never met their god. They are followers of a book.

I would say, none has. But for being follower of a book, who is not? Aren't you? Every one, in a form or another, is the follower of a book. Even the one who is not religious follows a book in order to get some kind of education.

Ben

Actually, no. A lot of us here don't follow any book.

You mean... a lot of you are illiterate and never learned anything from following instructions in a book? That's what I mean by "Who is not the follower of a book?"

Ben

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:52 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Okay Good Name, how about sharing with me why you do not agree with me and why, in your opinion, the other people equally do not?

Well, Ben, I can't answer for everyone, but I am sure I will answer for some.

I don't agree with you because my beliefs have their own creation event. A creation event where your god is not mentioned at all.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:57 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Point of order here: I don't have a creator god, and I suspect All doesn't either.

Now you're getting me to nitpick details. Wink

Can something be said to be created when it is just crafted?

I'm a homebrewer. I like to say that I make (create) my own beer, when I really just assemble the components and apply heat and time.

I suppose in the strictest sense, Odin, Vili, and Ve cannot be said to have "created" the world, but merely crafted it out of pre-existing matter. I think it is a fine enough line to be irrelevant though.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:00 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
Isaiah had the same opinion, as he declared that the Truth is depended on how one speaks it; I mean, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't speak according to this method, it is because there is no truth in them." What is the Truth then? According to Jesus, it is the Word of God. (John 17:17) And according to the Psalmist, the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:10,20) Does it mean that the Truth is found with the Jewish People?

Ben

No, it means the god of Abraham is the truth for the generations of Abraham. What is true for one, is not necessarily true for another.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:14 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
I would say, none has. But for being follower of a book, who is not? Aren't you? Every one, in a form or another, is the follower of a book. Even the one who is not religious follows a book in order to get some kind of education.

Ben

My beliefs do not come from a book. If they came from a book, I'd still be an atheist Zen Buddhist.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

Worse. The opium of the nations. That's the least probable "place" to find God.

Ben
Are you only looking for Yahweh?

All my life I have been trying to catch God at His work of creation. And not out of religion but as a way of life.

Ben


Nice attempt to evade. Still doesn't answer the question.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:20 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
sacrificialgoddess wrote:Point of order here: I don't have a creator god, and I suspect All doesn't either.

Well, fair enough. If there was not a Creator for the universe, how did it come about? From the time of Aristotle, Cosmolosgists used to claim that the universe was eternal. Without beginning and without end. That it had always been there. In 1822, Lamaitre came up with the theory of the big bang as the origin of the universe. It happens that, for about 4000 years, the Bible has been saying that the universe had a beginning. (Gen. 1:1) Now, the Cosmologists had no option but to admit that's true. The universe did have a beginning with the big bang. If the big bang gave origin to the universe, the big bang of what? What was there to cause the big bang?

Ben

If you can't see something, what does that mean?
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:22 pm

Ben Masada wrote:

You mean... a lot of you are illiterate and never learned anything from following instructions in a book? That's what I mean by "Who is not the follower of a book?"

Ben

No, she means that we follow experiencial religions, and not revealed ones.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:38 pm

That's right. We base our beliefs on direct contact with deity rather than basing it on second hand experiences someone else *might* have had.

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