Things God Did Not Create

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:15 pm

Beribee wrote:

All.....I like your idea for some new dialog. Maybe you could make it a new topic for discussion? Just a thought.....

Ok, let's see where it goes.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:42 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:48 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:I had a migraine when I first looked at this. Well, I don't have one now, but this is still not making any sense. Maybe I caught a case of the dumb.

Well, maybe. What is it that does not make sense to you, that God did not create time and space or sin and death?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:48 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:55 pm

John T Mainer wrote:Most of it is irrelevant to most of the people here. Since I do not believe there has been a single divinity since the sundering of Ymir, I cannot rationalize a universe that is both aware and singular.

The whole idea of a single omni blah blah blah god always struck me as nothing but intellectual laziness on the part of people who wished to not have to think about how the universe operated.

Polytheists understand the universe has rules (defined largely by what we now refer to as science). We tend to keep the physical reality and spiritual matters separate.

I can relate to the irrelevance of this subject to most of the people here because they are used to anthropmorphizing God as if He were one from the many in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. IOW, they are unable to think metaphorically.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:59 pm

BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:12 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.

Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:18 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.

Sorry ATGNWT, but the Monotheism brought to us from Abraham is not anthropomorphized but made so by the members of the literal interpretation club. So, the problem is not with the text but with who is reading the text. Lack of expertise in metaphorical language.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

Nothing, as whether or not something is accepted and for how long by persons has little relevancy upon its correctness or upon the deities themselves. Do you feel that your deity would be adversely affected if persons stopped believing in him? Is he some sort of cosmic Tinkerbell?

Not to mention my beliefs bear no relation to those of the ancient greeks.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.

Sorry ATGNWT, but the Monotheism brought to us from Abraham is not anthropomorphized but made so by the members of the literal interpretation club. So, the problem is not with the text but with who is reading the text. Lack of expertise in metaphorical language.

Ben

Deut 23:12-14
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.

Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

I disagree.

What makes you so sure the gods and demigods of the Olympian gods are dead?

I would say that the vast majority of Christians have never met their god. They are followers of a book.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:16 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

Nothing, as whether or not something is accepted and for how long by persons has little relevancy upon its correctness or upon the deities themselves. Do you feel that your deity would be adversely affected if persons stopped believing in him? Is he some sort of cosmic Tinkerbell?

Not to mention my beliefs bear no relation to those of the ancient greeks.


So, in your opinion, the more people believe something and the longest they do it, has the same relevance as the cult of David Chresh, or "JW's" ?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:20 pm

So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:27 pm

gillyflower wrote:So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

Worse. The opium of the nations. That's the least probable "place" to find God.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:34 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.

Sorry ATGNWT, but the Monotheism brought to us from Abraham is not anthropomorphized but made so by the members of the literal interpretation club. So, the problem is not with the text but with who is reading the text. Lack of expertise in metaphorical language.

Ben

Deut 23:12-14

Wow! What did you expect, that they should wait until restrooms be built so that they could ease nature? This had nothing to do with God, but with Moses. He was the one who didn't like what he saw. So, as a result of pious habit, he introduced God into this equasion in order to make people take the case seriously. God is not like a man to act as one. (Num. 23:19)

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:34 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

Nothing, as whether or not something is accepted and for how long by persons has little relevancy upon its correctness or upon the deities themselves. Do you feel that your deity would be adversely affected if persons stopped believing in him? Is he some sort of cosmic Tinkerbell?

Not to mention my beliefs bear no relation to those of the ancient greeks.


So, in your opinion, the more people believe something and the longest they do it, has the same relevance as the cult of David Chresh, or "JW's" ?

Ben

No, my understanding is that the truthfulness of something is independent as to how long or even how many people hold an opinion about it.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:40 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.

Sorry ATGNWT, but the Monotheism brought to us from Abraham is not anthropomorphized but made so by the members of the literal interpretation club. So, the problem is not with the text but with who is reading the text. Lack of expertise in metaphorical language.

Ben

Deut 23:12-14

Wow! What did you expect, that they should wait until restrooms be built so that they could ease nature? This had nothing to do with God, but with Moses. He was the one who didn't like what he saw. So, as a result of pious habit, he introduced God into this equasion in order to make people take the case seriously. God is not like a man to act as one. (Num. 23:19)

Ben

What did I expect? Nothing. That is an example of the texts that we are familiar with anthropomorphizing. Neither it specifically, nor the act of anthropomorphizing in general is why I do not follow your deity or believe that it is the only one.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:50 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

Worse. The opium of the nations. That's the least probable "place" to find God.

Ben

I agree

No matter what deity you are talking about.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:36 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:So.... you feel like religion is just a social club, then?

Worse. The opium of the nations. That's the least probable "place" to find God.

Ben
Are you only looking for Yahweh?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:51 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Okay Good Name, how about sharing with me why you do not agree with me and why, in your opinion, the other people equally do not? According to Genesis chapter one, everything that God created, behold! It was good. Then, man ill used his free will and did evil. Did God create evil?

Then, God created matter. Can you tell us how long does it take from matter to move from its place unto another? No, matter must move for you to figure. Therefore, time is an accident of motion. Matter in motion, that is. Does it mean God created time? There is no logic. So, why don't you agree with me?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:02 pm

Point of order here: I don't have a creator god, and I suspect All doesn't either.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:13 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

Nothing, as whether or not something is accepted and for how long by persons has little relevancy upon its correctness or upon the deities themselves. Do you feel that your deity would be adversely affected if persons stopped believing in him? Is he some sort of cosmic Tinkerbell?

Not to mention my beliefs bear no relation to those of the ancient greeks.


So, in your opinion, the more people believe something and the longest they do it, has the same relevance as the cult of David Chresh, or "JW's" ?

Ben

No, my understanding is that the truthfulness of something is independent as to how long or even how many people hold an opinion about it.

Isaiah had the same opinion, as he declared that the Truth is depended on how one speaks it; I mean, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't speak according to this method, it is because there is no truth in them." What is the Truth then? According to Jesus, it is the Word of God. (John 17:17) And according to the Psalmist, the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:10,20) Does it mean that the Truth is found with the Jewish People?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:28 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not Greek Mythology.

Anyway, the abrahamatic deity is pretty well anthropomorphized for us in the texts that most of us are familiar with.

Sorry ATGNWT, but the Monotheism brought to us from Abraham is not anthropomorphized but made so by the members of the literal interpretation club. So, the problem is not with the text but with who is reading the text. Lack of expertise in metaphorical language.

Ben

Deut 23:12-14

Wow! What did you expect, that they should wait until restrooms be built so that they could ease nature? This had nothing to do with God, but with Moses. He was the one who didn't like what he saw. So, as a result of pious habit, he introduced God into this equasion in order to make people take the case seriously. God is not like a man to act as one. (Num. 23:19)

Ben

What did I expect? Nothing. That is an example of the texts that we are familiar with anthropomorphizing. Neither it specifically, nor the act of anthropomorphizing in general is why I do not follow your deity or believe that it is the only one.

But, as I have explained to you above, there was no anthropomorphizing of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The case in Deut. 23:12-14 had nothing to do with God but with Moses, who tried to make the Israelites take it seriously and start being more civilized by covering their stinky job.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:33 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.

Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

I disagree.

What makes you so sure the gods and demigods of the Olympian gods are dead?

I would say that the vast majority of Christians have never met their god. They are followers of a book.

I would say, none has. But for being follower of a book, who is not? Aren't you? Every one, in a form or another, is the follower of a book. Even the one who is not religious follows a book in order to get some kind of education.

Ben

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Ben Masada wrote:
gillyflower wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.

Perhaps you disagree because either you do not understand what I am talking about or you do not believe in the existence of God. The foundation I am trying to promote is that the natural laws are the tools in the hands of God to create the universe and to keep it in constant expansion. You do believe in the expansion of the universe, don't you? When Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Obviously, he meant creation by a reference to the expansion of the universe.

Ben

Ben, I do not have a problem believing in the existence of deities. What I have a problem with is believing in the existence of only one deity. As I said in my other thread that this discussion spawned, one god cannot be nearly enough.

Once upon a time, there were many gods and demigods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Today, they are all dead. It took them to stick around for less than 500 years. The Monotheism discovered by Abraham has lasted for about five thousand years already, and it is still live and kicking. Does it say anything to you about the truth between Monotheism and Polytheism?

Ben

I disagree.

What makes you so sure the gods and demigods of the Olympian gods are dead?

I would say that the vast majority of Christians have never met their god. They are followers of a book.

I would say, none has. But for being follower of a book, who is not? Aren't you? Every one, in a form or another, is the follower of a book. Even the one who is not religious follows a book in order to get some kind of education.

Ben

Actually, no. A lot of us here don't follow any book.

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