Things God Did Not Create

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Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:21 pm

THINGS GOD DID NOT CREATE

Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his free will. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's only natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things. Good luck!

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:50 pm

Which god are you talking about?

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Well this being the Christianity debate, I think he is making the reasonable assumption that in this board the default is Jehova. For the rest of us that is actually not true, and thus the rest of his argument would be specious. In this board, the assumption is accepted as valid for the purposes of discussion within a faith group defined by that assumption.

Within the assumptions of his faith (so much not my own), his argument is pretty interesting. As a thought experiment it has great interest. Anyone who has ever done any urban shooting will know this truth; the best aimed bullet is only predictable until it strikes its first surface, after that, the gods themselves must duck and hope for once unleashed the force obeys chance and its own nature, rather than any predestiny or intent to map its wandering path.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:13 pm

You are right! I didn't look at the board name before I posted.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:40 pm

I am not following this conversation at all. confused

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by John T Mainer on Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:32 pm

SG the OP is asking even if you accept a single creator, the act of creation does not itself imply control of the effects of creation. Even with control of what he actually brought into being, much of the universe is effect, or balance of effects of that creation, and in no way under even the implication of control.

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Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:59 pm

John T Mainer wrote:Well this being the Christianity debate, I think he is making the reasonable assumption that in this board the default is Jehova. For the rest of us that is actually not true, and thus the rest of his argument would be specious. In this board, the assumption is accepted as valid for the purposes of discussion within a faith group defined by that assumption.

Within the assumptions of his faith (so much not my own), his argument is pretty interesting. As a thought experiment it has great interest. Anyone who has ever done any urban shooting will know this truth; the best aimed bullet is only predictable until it strikes its first surface, after that, the gods themselves must duck and hope for once unleashed the force obeys chance and its own nature, rather than any predestiny or intent to map its wandering path.

Well, John, I read your post above twice and I still do not understand it as a reply to the things God did not create. I mean no offense but... it is a nonsequitur.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:06 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:I am not following this conversation at all. confused

You are not following or you are not in for it? We have hardly started it. It can hardly be said to be a conversation. Pity, as almost all take everything as coming from God's hands.

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Things God Did Not Create

Post by Ben Masada on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:15 pm

John T Mainer wrote:SG the OP is asking even if you accept a single creator, the act of creation does not itself imply control of the effects of creation. Even with control of what he actually brought into being, much of the universe is effect, or balance of effects of that creation, and in no way under even the implication of control.

Hey John, you have got something in there somewhere. As a matter of fact, creation does not imply that it must be under the control of the creator. When man was created, he, among all the animals, was the one gifted with the attribute of free will, and that's not under God's control, but of man's himself. No wonder God created man straight and he went after many other calculations. (Eccl. 7:29) Hence, evil, which was not created by God but by man.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:03 am

Ben, I disagree with the foundation that you are trying to promote. I do not see the one that you refer to as "God" as the "supreme creator". Likely most of the people you are discussing with do not as well.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:32 pm

You're right John, it is kind of interesting as a thought experiment.

I'm thinking along his lines of "energy is an accident of matter".

What if you look at it differently, what if energy is not the accident of matter, but matter is the accident of energy? I think pondering that possibility will at least take the rest of my afternoon.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:43 pm

I had a migraine when I first looked at this. Well, I don't have one now, but this is still not making any sense. Maybe I caught a case of the dumb.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:15 pm

You have to think along simpler lines than you usually do, SG.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:16 pm

I do tend to over think stuff. Smile

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by John T Mainer on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Most of it is irrelevant to most of the people here. Since I do not believe there has been a single divinity since the sundering of Ymir, I cannot rationalize a universe that is both aware and singular.

The whole idea of a single omni blah blah blah god always struck me as nothing but intellectual laziness on the part of people who wished to not have to think about how the universe operated.

Polytheists understand the universe has rules (defined largely by what we now refer to as science). We tend to keep the physical reality and spiritual matters separate.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:16 pm

Smile

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by tmarie64 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:14 pm

Much as I find Ben's topics to be not terribly interesting. I will say this... If you come to Christianity debates, then debate. Don't complain that he doesn't think as you do or he's assuming anything. He is on the CHRISTIANITY DEBATE boards. That would mean he is talking Christian.

If you can't do it without INSULTING those who choose to believe in one God, then shut up. Debating is not about calling anyone "intellectually lazy". That is insulting. If you can't do it without insulting may want to rethink YOUR "intellectual laziness".

It's about debating Christianity. If you don't want to, fine. Ignore the thread as I would have until I saw what I took as a snide remark about my intellect. THAT pisses me off.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:23 pm

If I upset you, then I am sorry, Tina. All I have been trying to say since I read post 1 is that I can't wrap my head around it. That still stands.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Beribee on Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:32 pm

I have to say that I agree with Tina on this one. I, too, was hurt by the comment about my intellect. I realize that the comment was not directed at me personally, but it's insulting nonetheless. (And I don't think it was you, SG.)

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by gillyflower on Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:40 pm

Can someone quote the insulting comment? I am beginning to believe that I'm reading a different thread than everyone else. Or I just missed the comment. If I made it, I'm sorry.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:11 am

tmarie64 wrote:Much as I find Ben's topics to be not terribly interesting. I will say this... If you come to Christianity debates, then debate. Don't complain that he doesn't think as you do or he's assuming anything. He is on the CHRISTIANITY DEBATE boards. That would mean he is talking Christian.



Don't mistake my tone or my intent here OK? I'm not complaining that he doesn't think as I do. I'm stating as a fact that I don't think as he does. Likely SG does not think as he does, nor does John. It's just a fact. If it is a fact he is unaware of, he needs to be informed.


tmarie64 wrote:
If you can't do it without INSULTING those who choose to believe in one God, then shut up. Debating is not about calling anyone "intellectually lazy". That is insulting. If you can't do it without insulting may want to rethink YOUR "intellectual laziness".

I am sorry if you took anything that I said as insulting. I can only assure you that I did not mean it as such. The only thing I can think of right now is that you took "simpler" as "intellectually lazy". That is not how I meant it. I really meant it as simpler. Possibly "cleaner" would have been a more apt term. You have to look at it from our perspective to really understand what I meant. Multiple deities all responsible for some different aspect and even multiple deities responsible for the over all "creation" or building. At first glance it is almost chaotic. Not to mention that polytheists, for the most part, do a better job (not slamming you here or even saying that it specifically applies to any person) of reconciling scientific findings.


tmarie64 wrote:
It's about debating Christianity. If you don't want to, fine. Ignore the thread as I would have until I saw what I took as a snide remark about my intellect. THAT pisses me off.

If it was me, it really wasn't a snide remark about your intellect. To be frank, I think you are wrong, not that you are stupid.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:25 am

Sorry folks! It wasn't you, SG or All. It was this line...

The whole idea of a single omni blah blah blah god always struck me as nothing but intellectual laziness on the part of people who wished to not have to think about how the universe operated.

That hit me wrong. I am NOT intellectually lazy, or any other lazy. It struck me as a snide condemnation of my CHOICE to believe as I do.
It is PERFECTLY fine to think that I am wrong. Because what anyone else thinks is not my problem. Just as what I believe is not your problem. Smile

I know it was not meant as it appeared. John would never intentionally insult any of us. None of us would intentionally insult or hurt any of the others. I was just commenting to remind others that believing differently is PERFECTLY ALL RIGHT.

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:46 am

I know that John is not the type of guy that I have to defend.

I think it illustrates the difference in thought processes though. This may be as good of a time as any to ask. I look at the world through my understanding. I can not imagine it in the manner that monotheists assert. So, how can you look at it the way that you do?

I mean, it would be easy and an answer that satisfied my curiousity to say that you were just blinding yourself to things that I see, that you don't want to answer questions that I could not find the answer to in monotheism. But as you pointed out, that's not fair, and it is based in assumption. I can't assume that you don't see the world the way I do. That you don't contemplate the vastness of the universe. That you don't concern yourself with the interactions between all forms of life on this planet, that you can't feel the powerful drives that you get when you think of offspring (which before friday I wouldn't have understood myself), or that you can't see the spark of intelligence in pets or livestock.

So if a positive discussion is going to spring out of this travesty, and it will probably be painful in the process, how do you reconcile these things that we both likely see? I'm not trying to be insulting, I know it is going to seem like an attack, but I really don't understand and can think of no other way to ask.
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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by Beribee on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:36 pm

tmarie64 wrote:Sorry folks! It wasn't you, SG or All. It was this line...

The whole idea of a single omni blah blah blah god always struck me as nothing but intellectual laziness on the part of people who wished to not have to think about how the universe operated.

That hit me wrong. I am NOT intellectually lazy, or any other lazy. It struck me as a snide condemnation of my CHOICE to believe as I do.
It is PERFECTLY fine to think that I am wrong. Because what anyone else thinks is not my problem. Just as what I believe is not your problem. Smile

I know it was not meant as it appeared. John would never intentionally insult any of us. None of us would intentionally insult or hurt any of the others. I was just commenting to remind others that believing differently is PERFECTLY ALL RIGHT.


It hit me the wrong way, as well. I know without a doubt that John didn't intentionally insult me. However, I do consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person.....and a person who is very comfortable with her beliefs. My beliefs are not up for debate...which is why I very rarely ever comment in here. I come to this website to discuss and learn about other people's faiths. I find John's faith (and All's...and everybody else's for that matter) fascinating. I have no desire to ever insult any of you, or to tell you your faith is wrong. I may not agree or understand it, but if it works for you, that's great! Like Tina said, believing differently is perfectly alright....and it doesn't make me intellectually lazy (or inferior, for that matter)! Smile Okay, I'm done rambling.......

All.....I like your idea for some new dialog. Maybe you could make it a new topic for discussion? Just a thought.....

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Re: Things God Did Not Create

Post by tmarie64 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:53 pm

What hit me was that I did not just take what was handed to me. I've spent YEARS researching and thinking and reached this spot BECAUSE I used my intellect and didn't just accept what I was told "cuz my great granddaddy said this was the way it should be so this is the way it is".

My great grandparents DID believe this way, and this is the way it is for me, but NOT because I blindly accepted anything. I found nothing else that works for me like my current choice.

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