Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:40 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:My goal in life is not to "get off this rock", but to live the best life possible. So the idea of pining for a better existence is anthema to me.
I've looked up the word "anthema" and have found nothing that applies to what you said. You must have a wondrous vocabulary. If you are against a better existence how can you be for living the best possible life? Do you not consider the your time here on earth to be your existence?

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:How can asking a rape victim to forgive their rapist be considered monstrous? Do you need me to explain that to you?
I would never "ask" that of a rape victim. I would merely suggest it as a way to heal.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:There are instances where nothing one is capable of doing can ever repay what has been taken, but it is on those who have wronged to do their best to make up for it, for as long as it takes. Certainly, one can continue to hate for as long as one feels the need to. Hate, and its cousin anger can be very useful, depending on the circumstances; both provide a certain level of focus and motivation to enact change. Being consumed by hate or anger, however, is a more problematic issue. Having said that, hating someone who has murdered ones child for as long as they or you live is not unreasonable, and only problematic if that hate prevents you from functioning normally.
Yes, well, changes made through a motivation of hate kind of scare me. That's why we have wars. I see hatred as blinding. Love can also motivate changes.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Of course, if you think forgiveness is the best thing, then you will obviously not understand how someone can hate, justifiably, for as long as they need to.
I understand it all too well. I've lived it.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:58 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:My goal in life is not to "get off this rock", but to live the best life possible. So the idea of pining for a better existence is anthema to me.
I've looked up the word "anthema" and have found nothing that applies to what you said. You must have a wondrous vocabulary. If you are against a better existence how can you be for living the best possible life? Do you not consider the your time here on earth to be your existence?

I should have been clearer; a better existence in some other realm/future life/enlightened state/awakened state/nirvana/heaven/etc. There is a theme among many of the "world religions" to escape "this life/this world/chain of karma/desires/etc" in the goal of attaining something better, a better state of being and so forth.\

This concept, the seeking of escape from the world, is anathema to me.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:00 pm

Sue Norton lives in Arkansas City, Kansas. She received terrible news during a phone call from her brother in January 1990. Her much beloved, Daddy, Richard Denny and his wife Virginia were found murdered in their home. Sue’s Daddy was shot to death in his isolated Oklahoma farmhouse. The crime netted the killer $17.00 and an old truck.

Sue says she felt "numb". She couldn’t understand why someone would want to hurt people who were old and poor.

The loss of her Daddy just broke her heart.

Sue sat through the trial of Robert Knighton (B.K.). She was confused about how she should feel. She tells me that everyone in the courtroom was consumed with hate. They all expected her to feel the same way. But she couldn’t hate the way they did because she says, "it didn’t feel good."

The last night of the trial she knew there must be another way. She couldn’t eat or sleep that night and prayed to God to help her. When morning came, she had this thought. "Sue, you don’t have to hate B.K., you could forgive him".

The next day, while the jury was out for deliberation, Sue got permission to visit B.K. through the bars of his holding cell. Sue relates, "I was really frightened. This was my first experience in a jail. B.K. was big and tall, he was shackled and had cold steely eyes." At first B.K. refused to look at Sue. She asked him to turn around and he answered, "why would any one want to talk to me after what I have done?" Sue replied, "I don’t know what to say to you. But I want you to know that I don’t hate you. My grandmother always taught me not to use the word hate. She taught me that we are here to love one another. If you are guilty, I forgive you.

B.K. thought Sue was just playing games. He couldn’t understand how she could forgive him for such a terrible crime. Sue says, "I didn’t think of him as killer, I thought of him as a human being.

People thought that Sue had lost her mind. Friends would step to the other side of the road to avoid her. But Sue says, "There is no way to heal and get over the trauma without forgiveness. You must forgive and forget and get on with your life. That is what Jesus would do.

B.K. resides on death row in Oklahoma. Sue often writes to him and visits occasionally. She feels that B.K. should never leave prison, but she does not want him executed. She has become friends with B.K. and because of her love and friendship he has become a devout Christian.

Sue states that some good has come out of her Daddy’s death.

"I have been able to witness to many people about Jesus and forgiveness and helped others to heal. I have brought B.K. and many other men on death row to our Lord Jesus Christ. I live in peace with my Lord!"

Sue Norton is a member of Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation and the Kansas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. Sue has traveled extensively to speak to schools, churches and community groups about forgiveness and Christianity.

Sue gave an eloquent speech to the parole board pleading to save B.K.'s life. Many of the parole board members were in tears but voted for death. B.K. was executed by the state of Oklahoma on May 27, 2003. Bud Welch from Oklahoma City and Aba Gayle from Oregon were both there to support BK and Sue with their loving energy.
Hmm, I guess I cannot post a link because I haven't been a member long enough yet. Anyway, true story. I find it amazing that people who have never heard of ACIM are able to forgive the very worst sorts of offenses. Before becoming a student of the course I basically never forgave anybody. Even after all this time it would be difficult given that situation. People like Sue Norton are an inspiration. What a world we would have if we had more like her.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 pm

There's a link button in the posting options. Alternatively, you can type in the URL, and people can copy and paste.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I should have been clearer; a better existence in some other realm/future life/enlightened state/awakened state/nirvana/heaven/etc. There is a theme among many of the "world religions" to escape "this life/this world/chain of karma/desires/etc" in the goal of attaining something better, a better state of being and so forth.\

This concept, the seeking of escape from the world, is anathema to me.
I actually tend to agree. The longing to get off this world and into Heaven simply reaffirms what a bad time you are having here. It ruins the present.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:24 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:There's a link button in the posting options. Alternatively, you can type in the URL, and people can copy and paste.
Thanks.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by John T Mainer on Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:42 am

You know, this quote here is like the conversation I had to sit through on a subway ride during the Gay Pride week about how one fellow had practiced until he could accommodate a fist in him without trouble. While I'm sure there are people out there that think this is a fine accomplishment, lord knows not limited to the gay crowd, but to me it is just something that is so far removed from anything I can conceive of ever wanting to do that I don't see any value in it, and struggle not to look at the people who do as being mentally deficient. This forgiveness story I find about as appealing as the fist up the but-crack. Far from wanting to emulate it, I struggle to not see it as unhealthy as well as morally questionable. Not my decision, so not my place to judge, but so not a choice I could agree with.


DiminishingInsanity wrote:
Sue Norton lives in Arkansas City, Kansas. She received terrible news during a phone call from her brother in January 1990. Her much beloved, Daddy, Richard Denny and his wife Virginia were found murdered in their home. Sue’s Daddy was shot to death in his isolated Oklahoma farmhouse. The crime netted the killer $17.00 and an old truck.

Sue says she felt "numb". She couldn’t understand why someone would want to hurt people who were old and poor.

The loss of her Daddy just broke her heart.

Sue sat through the trial of Robert Knighton (B.K.). She was confused about how she should feel. She tells me that everyone in the courtroom was consumed with hate. They all expected her to feel the same way. But she couldn’t hate the way they did because she says, "it didn’t feel good."

The last night of the trial she knew there must be another way. She couldn’t eat or sleep that night and prayed to God to help her. When morning came, she had this thought. "Sue, you don’t have to hate B.K., you could forgive him".

The next day, while the jury was out for deliberation, Sue got permission to visit B.K. through the bars of his holding cell. Sue relates, "I was really frightened. This was my first experience in a jail. B.K. was big and tall, he was shackled and had cold steely eyes." At first B.K. refused to look at Sue. She asked him to turn around and he answered, "why would any one want to talk to me after what I have done?" Sue replied, "I don’t know what to say to you. But I want you to know that I don’t hate you. My grandmother always taught me not to use the word hate. She taught me that we are here to love one another. If you are guilty, I forgive you.

B.K. thought Sue was just playing games. He couldn’t understand how she could forgive him for such a terrible crime. Sue says, "I didn’t think of him as killer, I thought of him as a human being.

People thought that Sue had lost her mind. Friends would step to the other side of the road to avoid her. But Sue says, "There is no way to heal and get over the trauma without forgiveness. You must forgive and forget and get on with your life. That is what Jesus would do.

B.K. resides on death row in Oklahoma. Sue often writes to him and visits occasionally. She feels that B.K. should never leave prison, but she does not want him executed. She has become friends with B.K. and because of her love and friendship he has become a devout Christian.

Sue states that some good has come out of her Daddy’s death.

"I have been able to witness to many people about Jesus and forgiveness and helped others to heal. I have brought B.K. and many other men on death row to our Lord Jesus Christ. I live in peace with my Lord!"

Sue Norton is a member of Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation and the Kansas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. Sue has traveled extensively to speak to schools, churches and community groups about forgiveness and Christianity.

Sue gave an eloquent speech to the parole board pleading to save B.K.'s life. Many of the parole board members were in tears but voted for death. B.K. was executed by the state of Oklahoma on May 27, 2003. Bud Welch from Oklahoma City and Aba Gayle from Oregon were both there to support BK and Sue with their loving energy.
Hmm, I guess I cannot post a link because I haven't been a member long enough yet. Anyway, true story. I find it amazing that people who have never heard of ACIM are able to forgive the very worst sorts of offenses. Before becoming a student of the course I basically never forgave anybody. Even after all this time it would be difficult given that situation. People like Sue Norton are an inspiration. What a world we would have if we had more like her.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:07 am

Man ... I really could have done without that analogy pale The lady in the story simply chose to end her suffering. I really don't see how that analogy applies ... yikes! No
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:26 am

DiminishingInsanity wrote:I understand what you are saying. There are billions of people on this earth whom you have never met and don't know, so how can you hate or accept them. When speaking about everybody that's a fair point.


I don't think you have it yet. Even the people that I have met, are not either hated nor accepted.

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
Frankly, I can't seem to bring myself to really love everybody whom I've never met either. Although that may because I haven't cultivated that capacity yet. The great spiritual masters often talk about such all inclusive love. Perhaps one day I will achieve it.

I don't put much stock in what those that people claim are "great spiritual masters" have to say. I don't find much spirituality in modern popular concepts.

DiminishingInsanity wrote:

In terms of our personal interactions that's different. Here on earth I see hate in terms of levels of severity. The level determines how much peace it robs me of. If somebody makes a rude comment I may hate them on a lesser level. Perhaps the comment has caused me a small degree of suffering. If somebody breaks into my house and kills my loved one I may hate them on a higher level. That would cause me a great deal of suffering. The same goes for love. In spirit things may be different.

I'm not much for hate, honestly. If someone makes a rude comment to me, it doesn't perturb me. Yes, I have that thread about the Taco Bell incident, but what bothered me is not that they were rude, but the manner in which that rudeness might be reflected upon me and mine. The fact that they were rude is incidental. If someone broke into my house, I'd kill them. I wouldn't bother hating them.

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
The thing is I realize the suffering is ultimately my decision. How ever much I choose to hate determines how much I suffer. I intend to start a topic on stories of forgiveness. I think when people understand that forgiveness is a state of mind and is done for the purpose of self healing it will become more popular.

I don't think it is a problem that you seem to think it is. As John stated in this thread or another (it's early, first cup of coffee) I have no need to forgive the movie theater guy. If I was there, I would have just put a bullet in his head, surrendering or not. The same goes for any that would undertake such actions. No wasted time spent hating, or trying to understand them. Dead, move on.
DiminishingInsanity wrote:

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:None that are deserving of hate are worth the energy that it would take to maintain that hate.

Very Happy I'm having a hard time making sense of this. It sounds to me like you are saying nobody is worth being hated. Is this correct?

No, there are those that are worth being hated, but none that are worthy of maintaining that hate for. Hate is a valuable tool, but is only a tool. Like all tools, it is important to remember to set it aside when the work is done.

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Do something if you can. Don't if you can't.
Yes, well, in terms of actions that is all that can be said. In terms of how we feel that's another matter. Great response by btw.

Do you find a difference in how you act vs feel?

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:29 am

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Forgiveness is an overrated concept, and while I understand it in its context and why it is held to be so "spiritually necessary", my lifeway does not hold the concept in any sort of esteem.

Restitution, I find anyway, to be a more fulfilling and worthwhile thing to provide. I find it rather difficult to accept that the wronged in anyway owe something to those who have wronged them; or that for the wronged to "begin to heal" they must forgive those who did them wrong. If you ask me, such a notion can be downright monstrous.

For justice to have any sort of value, the burden is on the one who comitted the wrong, to compensate or restitute those who they have wronged. "How can I ever make this up to you" is a lot more meaningful than "you need to forgive me".

I think, that to expect, and extort upon those wronged to forgive the ones that wronged them, is akin to victimizing them all over again.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:39 am

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Hate isn't the default position.
I totally agree. My view is that love is natural, and when it doesn't happen something has gone wrong.

Love isn't the default position.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:47 am

John T Mainer wrote:You know, this quote here is like the conversation I had to sit through on a subway ride during the Gay Pride week about how one fellow had practiced until he could accommodate a fist in him without trouble. While I'm sure there are people out there that think this is a fine accomplishment, lord knows not limited to the gay crowd, but to me it is just something that is so far removed from anything I can conceive of ever wanting to do that I don't see any value in it, and struggle not to look at the people who do as being mentally deficient. This forgiveness story I find about as appealing as the fist up the but-crack. Far from wanting to emulate it, I struggle to not see it as unhealthy as well as morally questionable. Not my decision, so not my place to judge, but so not a choice I could agree with.


affraid LMAO!
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:49 am

DiminishingInsanity wrote:Man ... I really could have done without that analogy pale The lady in the story simply chose to end her suffering. I really don't see how that analogy applies ... yikes! No

Some of us here see the concept that you are describing as just as odd and unnatural.
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