Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

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Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:01 pm

I oftentimes hear the term "Total Non-Judgment" thrown around in the context of being a spiritual ideal of some sort that we should strive to achieve. Apparently, there is supposed to be a way to suspend all judgment and still go on living in this world. My contention is that such a state is neither possible nor necessary while we are here on earth.

Pretty much every action we take involves judgment. We decide what to wear, what to eat, we look both ways before crossing the street, even the decision not to judge, or not to listen to ego, is a judgment in itself of sorts, and so the term total non-judgment is probably an oxymoron. At any rate I don't see how it is possible here on earth. Maybe if one were in a state of suspended animation, but I hardly think such a state would lead to enlightenment.

Personally, I believe that total non-condemnation is more accurate, useful, and attainable. I would reserve it for people but not necessarily for their actions. Agree? Disagree? Share your thoughts.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:11 am

How can you deal with people if you do not judge them? Shall I treat the words of a convicted con man the same way I treat a decorated veteran? Shall I weigh the advice on child rearing from a sixteen year old the same way as the 82year old nineteen time great grandmother? Anyone who has met me will know how bad an idea it is to take my fashion advice over Sacrificial Goddess or Gilly.

Judge by their deeds. Not beliefs, race, gender, orientation or any other lable. Judge by what they chose to do, and you judge fact not opinion.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:22 am

DI, if you haven't figured it out yet, majority of us here are from other than Abrahamatic paths. I personally do not see "non-judgement" as something that is even desirable, let alone something that we should be striving for.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:52 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:DI, if you haven't figured it out yet, majority of us here are from other than Abrahamatic paths. I personally do not see "non-judgement" as something that is even desirable, let alone something that we should be striving for.
The total non-judgment (TNJ) idea is not really an Christian/Muslim/Jewish teaching ... at least not traditionally. The Buddhists are heavily into it as well as other eastern belief systems. As I said in the OP I'm not convinced TNJ is possible or even attainable here on earth. What are your thoughts on total non-condemnation when applied to people but not their actions? To say it differently love and accept people because we are all spirit, but condemn certain actions.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Is there a difference between a person and his or her actions?
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:32 pm

I see things in terms of Spirit and ego. Spirit is reality while the ego is our idea. It seems real only because we give it power. Example: The shooter in Aurora listened to ego. Had he listened to Spirit he would not have done it. While I condemn such actions I also believe that in spirit the shooter is still perfect because spirit is perfect. I don't quote the Bible much because it's not my book, but there is one passage that I believe sums it up fairly well.

Matthew 25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

KJV

Spirit is all encompassing. When we reject others we reject spirit. Likewise, we can only truly accept spirit by accepting everybody.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:41 pm

Ah, I don't. There is no struggle going on inside of me. No contradiction between my actions and the way that my actions should be, and the way I want my actions to be. There is just me and what I do.

My path teaches responsibility for my own actions.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:01 pm

Separating an individual from there actions, removes any agency that individual has, and renders any action they do, meaningless. In this manner it is neither reasonable, nor wise to do so.

Thoughts without deeds are worthless. Holding that there is something worthwhile in an individual who has beliefs, but does not act on them, is pointless.

People, not their egos or their spirits, are responsible for their actions (exceptions include some psychological or mental disorder which removes the faculty of reason). To try and seperate an individual from the way they act, equally futile and ultimately unhelpful.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:26 pm

On earth people should take responsibility for their actions. If somebody does a crime they should be put behind bars for the safety of society. When I speak of total non-condemnation I'm referring to the person's spiritual state and more importantly how I perceive them.

Let me put it another way. If I were to hate and condemn everybody whom I thought did wrong here on earth I would be a basket case. By separating actions from what we truly are, I'm able to accept those I would otherwise condemn thereby lightening my own burden, and still handle their actions in the appropriate way.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:36 pm

I guess I'm not understanding your dichotomy here. Why the need to either hate or accept? I don't see the world as an either or proposition. It's a spectrum. Just as very few are deserving of hate, very few are deserving of acceptance.

None that are deserving of hate are worth the energy that it would take to maintain that hate. Do something if you can. Don't if you can't.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:44 pm

So let me see if I understand your interpretation of this point of ACIM belief.

Humans are luminous, spiritual beings; this is there true nature. As their true nature is spiritual, it is also uncorruptible, and so perfect. Now, humans may be spiritual beings at their core, but they are also physical beings. Their bodies, their fleshy forms, are corruptible and prone to weakness. While their spiritual selves do their best to overcome their physical, the physcial can be domineering and more often than not overwhelms the spiritual, and can then get sick, suffer, be cruel and awful.

Only by first coming to the realilization that humans true nature is spiritual, and so perfect, can one begin to see that everything else is only temporal, and of little lasting consequence. Suffering, sickness and even death, become mere figments, delusions of spiritual beings who have essentially been tricked into thinking they are in reality physical beings.

With this said, since every human is in fact perfect and it is only the weakness of the flesh which results in wrong doing, the concept of judging others (whose true selves are perfect) doesn't make any sense because one is only judging the temporary individual, and no their true selves?

Does that about sum it up?

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:19 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:On earth people should take responsibility for their actions. If somebody does a crime they should be put behind bars for the safety of society. When I speak of total non-condemnation I'm referring to the person's spiritual state and more importantly how I perceive them.

Let me put it another way. If I were to hate and condemn everybody whom I thought did wrong here on earth I would be a basket case. By separating actions from what we truly are, I'm able to accept those I would otherwise condemn thereby lightening my own burden, and still handle their actions in the appropriate way.

From my point of view as a Heathen, or Asatruar, or Norse Pagan (depending on who is doing the defining), I find that weird. The quote from the Hamaval gives us this:

Cattle die, kinsmen die
You too will die,
One thing alone will not die,
The fame of a good man's deeds.

The only true immortal thing we have is our deeds. Deeds are truth, everything else is speculation or opinion. There may be a thousand schools of thought about why I knifed a bear, everything from heroism to sadism, from self defense to insanity, and even some that want to bring seemingly absurdly unrelated forces and agencies. I live, the bear died, I killed it. These are facts that are independantly verifiable and accepted by all witnesses and investigations.

That nameless thing walked into a theater with the planned intent of killing individuals unknown to him. He brought weapons for that purpose, used them repeatedly to kill, even after witnessing the results. He was under no threat or external compulsion. He chose to surrender to police without a fight when confronted with equally armed foes.

I don't care about his spiritual state. I don't even care about his name. I would have no problem putting him in his grave and probably wouldn't even remember him afterwards. I don't hate him; I don't hate turds on my shoes either; I jusst scrape them off and toss them in the garbage.

I don't need to forgive anyone. I don't need to find something to love in them either. Some people really are best used fertilizing flower beds. This is the result of their life choices, and upon their own head be it. This does not bother me at all, because it is the corrolary to accepting personal responsibility for myself; I expect other people to be responsible for their own actions too.

We are our deeds. Some are great, many are amazing, most are average, some are pathetic, and others are worthless nithlings undeserving even of a name. I don't waste time feeling bad about choices other people made; I have enough to do looking after those I have responsibility toward.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:47 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I guess I'm not understanding your dichotomy here. Why the need to either hate or accept? I don't see the world as an either or proposition. It's a spectrum. Just as very few are deserving of hate, very few are deserving of acceptance.

I understand what you are saying. There are billions of people on this earth whom you have never met and don't know, so how can you hate or accept them. When speaking about everybody that's a fair point. Frankly, I can't seem to bring myself to really love everybody whom I've never met either. Although that may because I haven't cultivated that capacity yet. The great spiritual masters often talk about such all inclusive love. Perhaps one day I will achieve it.

In terms of our personal interactions that's different. Here on earth I see hate in terms of levels of severity. The level determines how much peace it robs me of. If somebody makes a rude comment I may hate them on a lesser level. Perhaps the comment has caused me a small degree of suffering. If somebody breaks into my house and kills my loved one I may hate them on a higher level. That would cause me a great deal of suffering. The same goes for love. In spirit things may be different.

The thing is I realize the suffering is ultimately my decision. How ever much I choose to hate determines how much I suffer. I intend to start a topic on stories of forgiveness. I think when people understand that forgiveness is a state of mind and is done for the purpose of self healing it will become more popular.


allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:None that are deserving of hate are worth the energy that it would take to maintain that hate.

Very Happy I'm having a hard time making sense of this. It sounds to me like you are saying nobody is worth being hated. Is this correct?

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:Do something if you can. Don't if you can't.
Yes, well, in terms of actions that is all that can be said. In terms of how we feel that's another matter. Great response by btw.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:10 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:The great spiritual masters often talk about such all inclusive love. Perhaps one day I will achieve it.



I see no reason to cultivate it.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:30 pm

Forgiveness is an overrated concept, and while I understand it in its context and why it is held to be so "spiritually necessary", my lifeway does not hold the concept in any sort of esteem.

Restitution, I find anyway, to be a more fulfilling and worthwhile thing to provide. I find it rather difficult to accept that the wronged in anyway owe something to those who have wronged them; or that for the wronged to "begin to heal" they must forgive those who did them wrong. If you ask me, such a notion can be downright monstrous.

For justice to have any sort of value, the burden is on the one who comitted the wrong, to compensate or restitute those who they have wronged. "How can I ever make this up to you" is a lot more meaningful than "you need to forgive me".

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:31 pm

gillyflower wrote:I see no reason to cultivate it.
Do you see a reason for our politicians to cultivate it?
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:39 pm

No, not really. They need to do their job and that is to represent their constituents. I don't really cared how they really feel about everything and everyone. I am a public servant. I do my job quite well without loving everyone.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:52 pm

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Forgiveness is an overrated concept, and while I understand it in its context and why it is held to be so "spiritually necessary", my lifeway does not hold the concept in any sort of esteem.
I make no judgments about you as I do not know you, but just to respond to your comment I have found from my own experience that most people are not interested in a spiritual lifestyle. The ones who claim a certain religion or spiritual path interpret it in a way that allows them to think and do the same things they would otherwise. The path that they choose simply fulfills some worldly agenda they have. Again, I'm not referring to you just those whom I have interacted with in person.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Restitution, I find anyway, to be a more fulfilling and worthwhile thing to provide. I find it rather difficult to accept that the wronged in anyway owe something to those who have wronged them; or that for the wronged to "begin to heal" they must forgive those who did them wrong. If you ask me, such a notion can be downright monstrous.

I agree that the victims owe the offenders nothing. Forgiveness is not done for somebody else. It is done for you. Restitution can make it easier. How is that monstrous?

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:For justice to have any sort of value, the burden is on the one who committed the wrong, to compensate or restitute those who they have wronged. "How can I ever make this up to you" is a lot more meaningful than "you need to forgive me".

Is it a lot more meaningful to say "How can I ever make this up to you" if they have killed your loved one? The problem with restitution is that somethings can never be made up for. How do you handle that? Do you just go on hating them in limbo forever? Is that not a heavy burden to bear?
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:54 pm

Hate isn't the default position.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:57 pm

gillyflower wrote:No, not really. They need to do their job and that is to represent their constituents. I don't really cared how they really feel about everything and everyone. I am a public servant. I do my job quite well without loving everyone.
I see. I might argue that loving people would help them to better serve their constituents, but I understand that you do not share this view. Personally, I feel that if the politicians really knew all the horror and suffering they caused people every time they decided to go to war we would have no war.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:59 pm

gillyflower wrote:Hate isn't the default position.
I totally agree. My view is that love is natural, and when it doesn't happen something has gone wrong.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:02 pm

Old men make the decisions, young men die on the front lines.

War is good for business. Start heavily taxing the rich and corporations to pay for the wars and we won't be fighting any.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:03 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Hate isn't the default position.
I totally agree. My view is that love is natural, and when it doesn't happen something has gone wrong.

Okay. That is not my view.

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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:08 pm

gillyflower wrote:Old men make the decisions, young men die on the front lines.

War is good for business. Start heavily taxing the rich and corporations to pay for the wars and we won't be fighting any.
I have to admit I would vote for such a motion.
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Re: Is Total Non-Judgment Even Possible?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:11 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Forgiveness is an overrated concept, and while I understand it in its context and why it is held to be so "spiritually necessary", my lifeway does not hold the concept in any sort of esteem.
I make no judgments about you as I do not know you, but just to respond to your comment I have found from my own experience that most people are not interested in a spiritual lifestyle. The ones who claim a certain religion or spiritual path interpret it in a way that allows them to think and do the same things they would otherwise. The path that they choose simply fulfills some worldly agenda they have. Again, I'm not referring to you just those whom I have interacted with in person.

Well, spirituality is a key component of my lifeway; it just may not have any relation to what you hold spirituality to be. My goal in life is not to "get off this rock", but to live the best life possible. So the idea of pining for a better existence is anthema to me.


Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Restitution, I find anyway, to be a more fulfilling and worthwhile thing to provide. I find it rather difficult to accept that the wronged in anyway owe something to those who have wronged them; or that for the wronged to "begin to heal" they must forgive those who did them wrong. If you ask me, such a notion can be downright monstrous.

I agree that the victims owe the offenders nothing. Forgiveness is not done for somebody else. It is done for you. Restitution can make it easier. How is that monstrous?

How can asking a rape victim to forgive their rapist be considered monstrous? Do you need me to explain that to you?

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:For justice to have any sort of value, the burden is on the one who committed the wrong, to compensate or restitute those who they have wronged. "How can I ever make this up to you" is a lot more meaningful than "you need to forgive me".

Is it a lot more meaningful to say "How can I ever make this up to you" if they have killed your loved one? The problem with restitution is that somethings can never be made up for. How do you handle that? Do you just go on hating them in limbo forever? Is that not a heavy burden to bear?
[/quote]

There are instances where nothing one is capable of doing can ever repay what has been taken, but it is on those who have wronged to do their best to make up for it, for as long as it takes. Certainly, one can contine to hate for as long as one feels the need to. Hate, and its cousin anger can be very useful, depending on the circumstances; both provide a certain level of focus and motivation to enact change. Being consumed by hate or anger, however, is a more problematic issue. Having said that, hating someone who has murdered ones child for as long as they or you live is not unreasonable, and only problematic if that hate prevents you from functioning normally.

Of course, if you think forgivness is the best thing, then you will obviouisly not understand how someone can hate, justifiably, for as long as they need to.

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