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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:44 pm

gillyflower wrote:So you see everything as black or white?
Not exactly. Somethings are trivial. Example: Do I use an Eagle pencil or a Eureka pencil to write a letter etc. Actions that are meaningful I see in terms of whether they express love or not.
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:05 pm

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I disagree. I see love, hate, and fear to be not that different. The true opposite of all three is apathy. If you love something, or hate something, or even fear something, you care deeply about it. The opposite would be not to care deeply about it, yet in a different manner, but not to care about it at all, would it not?
Very Happy ... that's technically true I guess. The opposite of emotion is the lack there of. The thing is I don't think that apathy will lead to my spiritual awakening. My personal view is that there is a God and God is love and not hate. I realize that not everybody shares this view and perhaps you don't.

I suppose there is a certain amount of peace to be gained by apathy, but I would ask where is the fulfillment? From my own experience love has fulfilled me while fear and hate have caused me to suffer. Is the burden of hate not heavy? Have you ever hated somebody and not suffered for it? When I hate others I feel bad. When I love others I feel happy and fulfilled. For me that's all the evidence I require.

P.S. Are you advocating apathy, the lack there of, or neither?


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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:08 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:It's fine with me if you want to love the person and not the actions. I don't love the person.
I've found that learning to love those whom are easy to hate has brought me peace. Do you rely on the law of return for peace?

No.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:11 pm

gillyflower wrote:No.
Then how do you find peace?
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:29 pm

What do you mean when you say peace? I am seeing a disconnect here.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:36 pm

Peace is like cold. It is a word we use for the perceived absence of something. The first world gets to enjoy peace because it sends its troops off to keep the war burning someone else's fields, even as police patrol the streets to keep the internal predators in check. Your perception of peace exists because you have not been the victim, nor a guardian against such.

I don't put much value on peace. I value frith. Frith means the acceptance of responsibility towards those you care about, to act in all respects as kinsmen to your family and close friends, as a citizen towards your neighbors, co-workers, and others that you interact with for mutual benefit or collective achievement.

Frith will call upon you to defend your own from outsiders. Frith will cause you often to confront one of your own who is working to undermine the harmony, security, or prosperity of your group.

Peace within a community is rooted in frith, peace between communities becomes possible when they accept grith, or mutual benefit from mutual respect between groups. If confrontation or violence is required to keep frith, it is a positive thing, and should be embraced as such. Peace is not kept; war is waged to bring about the acceptance of a new relationship between groups or individuals.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:53 pm

I don't think firth is what we are talking about here. Which is why I think there is disconnect here.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:55 pm

Wait.... So, because someone does not agree or cater to your belief that one MUST forgive to be happy, then that person is angry?
Really? In Christian teachings GOD, himself, does not forgive those who do not repent and reform. I'm actually QUITE a happy person, negative, hair trigger temper, but I am not "angry". I just choose not to forgive the dickhead who assaulted me and then looked a judge in the eye and said, "No, I am not sorry for what I have done and would do it again"... That statement earned me a lifetime restraining order and an offer of free weapons training from, not one, but three bailiffs.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:00 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:I don't think firth is what we are talking about here. Which is why I think there is disconnect here.

I think that you are right.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:04 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:What do you mean when you say peace? I am seeing a disconnect here.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up peace of mind in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Peace of Mind may refer to:

The absence of mental stress or anxiety, and the presence of serenity, calm, quiet, comfort of mind; Inner peace
This definition works for me. I mean no trickery when I use the word peace. I refer to "Peace", or "peace of mind" just as it is defined.
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:17 pm

tmarie64 wrote:Wait.... So, because someone does not agree or cater to your belief that one MUST forgive to be happy, then that person is angry? Really? In Christian teachings GOD, himself, does not forgive those who do not repent and reform. I'm actually QUITE a happy person, negative, hair trigger temper, but I am not "angry". I just choose not to forgive the dickhead who assaulted me and then looked a judge in the eye and said, "No, I am not sorry for what I have done and would do it again"... That statement earned me a lifetime restraining order and an offer of free weapons training from, not one, but three bailiffs.
It is not my intention to convert anybody to my belief system or to condemn anybody who disagrees. I study ACIM. It has very little in common with Christianity and does not require me to save or convert anybody. The purpose of this topic is to find peace in the face of tragedy. If you feel you have no need for it ... or are comfortable with not forgiving then that's fine to. We all walk our own path.
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:20 pm

gillyflower wrote:Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.
I take it you value the bad with the good equally? I guess if that's the case then you have no need for peace. Is this correct?
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:24 pm

Black and white again?

If she wants the good with the bad, then she cannot value peace?

You don't understand the part about valuing all emotions?


Last edited by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:25 pm

Ah, peace of mind. Well, I enjoy peace of mind almost all of the time. When anger is called for, I call upon it, and act to redress whatever grievance birthed it.

I really don't see how people I don't know making choices I don't approve of and that have no direct bearing on me or mine should threaten my peace of mind. I don't have a world view that demands human beings to be other than they are (world accepting, not world rejecting faith).

I don't need to forgive them. I judge the deed, and wash my hands of it. There is a short checklist:
1)Should I do something about this? (yes-go to 2, no go to 4)
2)Can I do something about this? (yes go to 3, no go to 4)
3)Do what I think is best
4)Put it from my mind, and move on.

This really is the key to peace of mind. What I should and can do, I do. What I can't do I don't worry about. All routes lead to step 4. All roads lead to peace of mind, and some of them to positive change along the way.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:28 pm

The way I understand he is using the word peace, it is an absence of emotion.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:32 pm

Yeah, I don't believe that exists. Sounds downright boring to me. Or perhaps just a description of someone suffering from lack of will.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by John T Mainer on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:33 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.
I take it you value the bad with the good equally? I guess if that's the case then you have no need for peace. Is this correct?

What is this need for duality, for value judgements. Good or bad; what is sleepy, what is green, what is excited? Why must everything be good or bad? What is sweet? Good or bad? What is the taste of wine, good or evil? Why must the smell of fresh grass be good or evil. Why must the snap in my knee in the morning be good or bad? Why can it not just be a part of the world, accepted for what it is?

If I stub my toe, should I forgive the rock for being hard, forgive my toe for being breakable? Fall to my knees and beg Thor to protect me from rocks in the future? Honestly I'm going to swear, laugh, shake my head, and move on. No value judgements, a whole range of cognitive and emotional responses, and no stress whatsoever.

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by gillyflower on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:35 pm

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.
I take it you value the bad with the good equally? I guess if that's the case then you have no need for peace. Is this correct?

This kind of bothers me. Emotions are just that; emotions. They are not bad or good. Sometimes we move on to acting because of our emotions and that can have bad or good consequences depending upon one's point of view.

(I am not talking about a medical condition like depression.)

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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:34 pm

gillyflower wrote:Black and white again?

If she wants the good with the bad, then she cannot value peace?

You don't understand the part about valuing all emotions?
I value all emotions but perhaps not in the context you speak of. I value anger, hate, jealousy, envy, fear, etc. because they have taught me that those are the things I don't want. Without having experienced them I would never be able to love the way I do now. I still feel those emotions to this day though not as frequently or intensely. I better understand their purpose.

Let me ask you this. When you are really pissed do you consider yourself to be at peace?
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:58 pm

John T Mainer wrote:Ah, peace of mind. Well, I enjoy peace of mind almost all of the time. When anger is called for, I call upon it, and act to redress whatever grievance birthed it.
Would you say then that peace of mind at all times is uncalled for?

A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough.
- Bruce Lee

"A man is about as big as the things that make him angry."
~Winston Churchill~

"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves."
~Buddha~


John T Mainer wrote:I really don't see how people I don't know making choices I don't approve of and that have no direct bearing on me or mine should threaten my peace of mind. I don't have a world view that demands human beings to be other than they are (world accepting, not world rejecting faith).
Great, that's a great first step to peace. Casting aside condemnation can really help. Though how does anger tie into this?

John T Mainer wrote:I don't need to forgive them. I judge the deed, and wash my hands of it. There is a short checklist:
1)Should I do something about this? (yes-go to 2, no go to 4)
2)Can I do something about this? (yes go to 3, no go to 4)
3)Do what I think is best
4)Put it from my mind, and move on.

Nice check list. Do you judge their actions and withhold judgment of them?

John T Mainer wrote:This really is the key to peace of mind. What I should and can do, I do. What I can't do I don't worry about. All routes lead to step 4. All roads lead to peace of mind, and some of them to positive change along the way.
Reminds me of another quote.

"God give me the serenity to accept things which cannot be changed; Give me courage to change things which must be changed; And the wisdom to distinguish one from the other."

Niebuhr, Reinhold
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:02 am

gillyflower wrote:The way I understand he is using the word peace, it is an absence of emotion.
No, this is what I posted.

DiminishingInsanity wrote: Very Happy ... that's technically true I guess. The opposite of emotion is the lack there of. The thing is I don't think that apathy will lead to my spiritual awakening. My personal view is that there is a God and God is love and not hate. I realize that not everybody shares this view and perhaps you don't.

I suppose there is a certain amount of peace to be gained by apathy, but I would ask where is the fulfillment? From my own experience love has fulfilled me while fear and hate have caused me to suffer. Is the burden of hate not heavy? Have you ever hated somebody and not suffered for it? When I hate others I feel bad. When I love others I feel happy and fulfilled. For me that's all the evidence I require.

P.S. Are you advocating apathy, the lack there of, or neither?
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:12 am

John T Mainer wrote:
DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.
I take it you value the bad with the good equally? I guess if that's the case then you have no need for peace. Is this correct?

What is this need for duality, for value judgements. Good or bad; what is sleepy, what is green, what is excited? Why must everything be good or bad? What is sweet? Good or bad? What is the taste of wine, good or evil? Why must the smell of fresh grass be good or evil. Why must the snap in my knee in the morning be good or bad? Why can it not just be a part of the world, accepted for what it is?

If I stub my toe, should I forgive the rock for being hard, forgive my toe for being breakable? Fall to my knees and beg Thor to protect me from rocks in the future? Honestly I'm going to swear, laugh, shake my head, and move on. No value judgements, a whole range of cognitive and emotional responses, and no stress whatsoever.
Yes, well, the context of that post was in terms of emotions. Would you not agree that emotions can make us suffer or happy? In that context there is good and bad if we take suffering as being bad. As for all the trivial stuff this is what I posted.

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:So you see everything as black or white?
Not exactly. Somethings are trivial. Example: Do I use an Eagle pencil or a Eureka pencil to write a letter etc. Actions that are meaningful I see in terms of whether they express love or not.
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by DiminishingInsanity on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:19 am

gillyflower wrote:
DiminishingInsanity wrote:
gillyflower wrote:Oh. I don't see any reason to feel that way all the time. I welcome all the emotions and value them all. I am a human and enjoy and appreciated this life i have in this body.
I take it you value the bad with the good equally? I guess if that's the case then you have no need for peace. Is this correct?

This kind of bothers me. Emotions are just that; emotions. They are not bad or good. Sometimes we move on to acting because of our emotions and that can have bad or good consequences depending upon one's point of view.

(I am not talking about a medical condition like depression.)
Would you agree that emotions such as sadness and despair cause you to suffer? Would you agree that suffering is bad? People have committed suicide over such emotions. Those emotions seemed bad to them. Likewise, would you agree that certain emotions make you happy? Is it not good to be happy?
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Re: Yesterday's Headlines

Post by John T Mainer on Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:30 am

DiminishingInsanity wrote:
Would you agree that emotions such as sadness and despair cause you to suffer? Would you agree that suffering is bad? People have committed suicide over such emotions. Those emotions seemed bad to them. Likewise, would you agree that certain emotions make you happy? Is it not good to be happy?

There we go. No I do not agree. The above statement is not consistent with reason, nor with life experience, nor with my understanding of morality, ethics, or sacred spirituality. This is the biggest problem I have with world denying faiths, in fact with all eastern religions in general.

Suffering is not necessarily bad. Happiness is not necessarily good. Absolutes belong in kindergarten books, and nowhere else. Reality is not black and white dualism. Reality is a thousand colours and as many shades of grey.

Raven Radio (one of the better Heathen podcasts) just did a show that was on grieving and loss. Suffering is important. Grief and loss, pain and rage, all of these things are a part of what must occur if you are to let go of someone that you loved, and begin to heal in the places where their absence is an open wound, galled by every reminder. Banishing the dark is dangerous foolishness. Running away from pain is weakness and self limiting. We have a saying; if the person you have lost was worth your love, they are worth your pain. If the person you have lost made you laugh, they are worth your tears. Grief is an offering for the one who is passed; even as it is the beginning of healing for those who remain.

Avoid suffering if you wish. The costs of such choices are high. Emotional cripples can avoid feeling the despair of loss by distancing themselves from those they fear to lose. By denying yourself any relationships you will be protected from loss entirely. There is a saying from the Hamaval that covers that too:


50. On the hillside drear | the fir-tree dies,
All bootless its needles and bark;
It is like a man | whom no one loves,--
Why should his life be long?

Embrace life. The joy, the laughter, the struggle, the tears. Test yourself against your fears, drink your grief to the dregs, then set the cup aside. Live without reservation, for death will claim you whether you dared to live first or not.

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