debating?

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:27 am

After the elections, I pretty much plan to ween off of Face Book too. My stand on this being a "Christian" board still remains, the same. My staying or leaving depends on the outcome of the disagreement. But I've noticed those I seem to have issues with here are pretty much laying low. Fang complains that since I retired, I spend too much time hunched over "that damn computer" as it is. My grand daughter now lives where I can see her almost daily, so I don't need to go to Face Book to check out her newest pictures, and as slow as this place is, as compared to Beliefnet, I don't see withdrawal issues. Time will tell.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:46 am

Now, one thing that I have learned in my admittedly short span so far is that things often run a bit deeper than we can understand. We can't say that someone is laying low, they might have more pressing issues in their life. We also don't know, maybe Tina was having a bad day, and snapped at us because of it.

My position is just bluntly, I do not and did not feel that this was a strictly Christian board. As such, when an individual states a blanket statement of what we all should do based off of Christian beliefs, I will not so gently correct them. If I am incorrect, and this is a Christian board, and not one where persons of all beliefs respond to posts discussing the merits of any one position, I will respectfully remove myself from any and all discussions upon it. Heading instead for more open areas of this site. There are discussions that I have not interjected my opinion in after all.
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:10 am

Bear, your objection to Barbara's post was appropriate.... brief, but appropriate. I simply expanded on it. Just because Christian is in the name of the board, IMO does not make that a Christian board..... just one where the religion is going to be discussed; we need to be clear on that. Now weather TMarie is laying low, is busy with more pressing issues, or whatever, I have not had my argument addressed. And having a bad day or not, I don't need to be admonished as though I'm a child on a debate board.... be it by what someone thinks is painting with a broad brush because she feels that she does not represent the more idiotic side of the religion, or the fact that someone spouting off biblical quotes should not be told that this board isn't where Christians go to disagree with denominational dogma, and we expect more than bible verses to make a statement. I really don't give a rip about the nuances. My complaint is being told that a Christianity Debate board is a Christian board simply because the word Christian is in the heading. What if the name of this board was "Christians Suck"? Would that make it just as much a Christian board? Or would people coming here get the idea that although Christianity is going to be in the discussion, it just may not be a place Christians want to venture unless they want to defend their faith? Let's stop ignoring the 500 pound gorilla standing in the middle of the room.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:56 am

Alright, let's stop ignoring it.


I'm tired of not getting the same courtesy that I extend to others. Someone can come to me and tell me that I have to behave in x manner to get to y destination, without even knowing anything about me, let alone if y destination is something I would want to go to and I'm supposed to smile and take it like it is good profound advice? Come on!

I'm about at the edge of being able to control myself in RL here. If one more person tries to comfort me by saying that it is all "God's plan", I might just punch them.

I have tried really really hard to respect everyone's right to believe what they want, regardless of how much I disagree with it, and now I am told that I can't tell them that I disagree with them? Black and white, if this is not the place that I can tell people that I disagree with them, I will not come here. End of story. I have enough places I have to be IRL that I have to smile and nod.

Fact of the matter is, I do disagree with Christianity, and not just one denomination or another. All of it. As I even said on another thread, if I am being honest, I do not even see it as spiritual. They read out of a fucking book. Over and over again in some cases. This is not how you have a relationship with a deity. You also don't have a relationship with a deity by talking at it. This was/is a deity that made an agreement with a group of people in the middle east. We have our own gods people. 90% of the people who call themselves Christian have other gods. Rightful gods. Gods that actually would have a relationship with us if we would just shut up and listen to what they have to say.

It
Fucking
Pisses
Me
Off

Especially when they act all high and mighty and expect everyone else to conform to their little view of the world.

That about sum it up John?
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:56 pm

In a nut shell. And I wholly agree. What next? As you see, no one else seems to want to get into the discussion.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:50 pm

Alright, let's stop ignoring it.
I have tried really really hard to respect everyone's right to believe what they want, regardless of how much I disagree with it, and now I am told that I can't tell them that I disagree with them? Black and white, if this is not the place that I can tell people that I disagree with them, I will not come here. End of story. I have enough places I have to be IRL that I have to smile and nod.

As was said eariler, a debate board ought to be just that, a place where folks can come and debate, regardless of who is making the argument or what the overarching theme of the board is. Debate should obviouisly stay on topic, so if you're debating Christianity, don't start debating Islam. I do not think that your posts were out of place, or off topic, as you have opinions and come here to express them.

Fact of the matter is, I do disagree with Christianity, and not just one denomination or another. All of it. As I even said on another thread, if I am being honest, I do not even see it as spiritual. They read out of a fucking book. Over and over again in some cases. This is not how you have a relationship with a deity. You also don't have a relationship with a deity by talking at it. This was/is a deity that made an agreement with a group of people in the middle east. We have our own gods people. 90% of the people who call themselves Christian have other gods. Rightful gods. Gods that actually would have a relationship with us if we would just shut up and listen to what they have to say.

A bold sentiment, and I am certain that many here will disagree with you, and perhaps (hopefully) they may even respond. For my part, though, being the curmudgeon that I am, find little to adamantly disagree with. Merely my opinion of course, but so much of mainstream Christianity (to say nothing of the more voicerfous fringes) is something which I find myself incresingly, lets say irritated, with. The theology, the creed, the (G)god(s), the people, while I understand their posistion and arguments, there simply is nothing, NOTHING, in which I find any use or value for myself.

It
Fucking
Pisses
Me
Off

Yes it does.

Especially when they act all high and mighty and expect everyone else to conform to their little view of the world.

That's the rub though, their "little" view of the world is THE view of the world; at least from a western perspective. Christianity is the neutral setting in the west when it coms to religion. Period. It is in our litterature, our architecture, our art, our films, our television, our media, our music, our calendar, our government(s), our laws. It is the lens through which all other religions are measured and judged; at least popularily. Christianity is hegenomy. There is, and has been, a demographic shift which is seeing this change; where minority voices are able to affect change. Some groups have been very sucessful in doing just this, owing to a history of persecution, a survivalist mentality and a commitment to community. Perhaps it isn't happening as fast as some people would like, and there are others who spend their every waking moment trying to stop this from happening.

The aspect which is so frustrating though, is that people do not understand. Their only frame of reference when it comes to deaing with difficult situations and crises, is to fall back on their cultural understanding of religion, and so people who do not even consider themselves Christian, will tell others "its all part of Gods plan", because they have no other way of dealing with crisis or calamity. There are of course just as many folks who would consider themselves Christian, and would offer the exact same "words of comfort". Which simply goes to show just how pervasive the cultural legacy is.

Of course, as you have clearly demonstrated, for those of us who do not accept this framework, who have developed or adopted different understandings of theology, fate and the gods; not only are these words empty, they are poison. They are constant jabs, underlying the inferiority of our own beliefs, swept away by the sheer cultural force that is Christianity. Doubly so because those offering them have never had to experience just how overwhelming it is to day in, day out, push back against that hegemony. Ignorance, afterall, is bliss.

So having a single place where maybe someone can let off some steam, or engage in debate or argument with/about Christians/Christianity, where it will not result in looks of horror, social awkwardness, family or professional tension, or a bevy of other circumstances, isn't really asking for a lot.

Is it?


Last edited by Gorm_Sionnach on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.

Coffee Three Shouts on a Hilltop
avatar
Gorm_Sionnach
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 838
Join date : 2009-04-02
Location : Toronto, ON, Canada.

http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:54 pm

john5180 wrote:In a nut shell. And I wholly agree. What next? As you see, no one else seems to want to get into the discussion.

I don't know.

I have to wonder though, how much talking about it would actually help. Let's face it, I'm not going to change. This is not a thing that I am going to be able to work through. Likewise, it is not something that they are going to come around on anytime soon. Even if individuals do, there is always gonna be someone like what's her name (don't feel like going back to get it) that busts in and starts telling us how we should be doing things with bible quotes.

So even if Tina did come back and join this discussion, what would be the outcome that we would desire? I'm not going to look any more highly on Christianity, or think any better of it, and she's still going to have the same proclivities herself. What could we possibly do?
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:31 pm



A bold sentiment, and I am certain that many here will disagree with you, and perhaps (hopefully) they may even respond. For my part, though, being the curmudgeon that I am, find little to adamantly disagree with. Merely my opinion of course, but so much of mainstream Christianity (to say nothing of the more voicerfous fringes) is something which I find myself incresingly, lets say irritated, with. The theology, the creed, the (G)god(s), the people, while I understand their posistion and arguments, there simply is nothing, NOTHING, in which I find any use or value for myself.

I can't even say that I understand their position or arguments anymore.



Of course, as you have clearly demonstrated, for those of us who do not accept this framework, who have developed or adopted different understandings of theology, fate and the gods; not only are these words empty, they are poison. They are constant jabs, underlying the inferiority of our own beliefs, swept away by the sheer cultural force that is Christianity. Doubly so because those offering them have never had to experience just how overwhelming it is to day in, day out, push back against that hegemony. Ignorance, afterall, is bliss.

That's honestly what I'm thinking this stems from. Tina didn't know how her words would sound to us.
It does illustrate a deeper issue though.


So having a single place where maybe someone can let off some steam, or engage in debate or argument with/about Christians/Christianity, where it will not result in looks of horror, social awkwardness, family or professional tension, or a bevy of other circumstances, isn't really asking for a lot.

Is it?

I guess so.
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:36 pm

I am at work but will be off later and will comment. Much as I love my iPad, it is difficult to make long comments. Smile

_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:46 pm

As for myself. I'm in complete agreement with all of the others who feel the same way about Christianity as I feel. And if there's to be no debating done on this board then they should take the word debate out of this boards name.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:53 pm

Okay, where I see things began to go wrong was when, in reaction to this being called a spirituality forum, it was called a Christian debate forum. I agreed with that. It is a spirituality board and a Christian debate forum. It says nothing about only Christians can debate, only that it is a Christian debate forum, i.e. the topics should have something to do with Christianity.

Barbara is gone. She isn't going to debate the point she brought up and all Tina was saying was that it is the Christian debate board - no preaching! Barbara was preaching rather than debating.

So, yes, Christianity can be debated all you want. You can say whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. I don't have the beef with Christianity right now that some of you have with good cause. No one has been in my face about it lately. It actually helped me to have Barbara quoting the bible for her responses. The person who does that, has a relationship with a book rather than a god.


_________________
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
avatar
gillyflower
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3400
Join date : 2009-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:04 pm



gillyflower wrote:Okay, where I see things began to go wrong was when, in reaction to this being called a spirituality forum, it was called a Christian debate forum. I agreed with that. It is a spirituality board and a Christian debate forum. It says nothing about only Christians can debate, only that it is a Christian debate forum, i.e. the topics should have something to do with Christianity.

Barbara is gone. She isn't going to debate the point she brought up and all Tina was saying was that it is the Christian debate board - no preaching! Barbara was preaching rather than debating.

So, yes, Christianity can be debated all you want. You can say whatever you want.


Not to be nitpicky Gilly, but Tina said:


tmarie64 wrote:Actually... ALL of you... This IS a Christianity board. The very title says, "Christianity Debate".

You don't get to say "Not a Christian board" on a CHRISTIAN BOARD.

You want Barbara to respect your choices... perhaps everyone should practice that.

The forum is not "christian", however this board is.

Barbara, this is a DEBATE board, NOT a preach board. Debate, give reasons or be quiet.

I took what she said to mean that:
1. This is a Christian board.
2. By expressing my view, admittedly bluntly, I was showing disrespect to her choices.

If this is true, I seek clarification. I was under the impression that the Christianity debate forum was not a Christian board, but a board about Christianity. I feel that there is a difference. Because of reasons that I have already stated, the best manner that I can use to show respect to Christianity, is to depart from the area where it is deemed that respect for it must be shown. I am willing to do that, but it requires that I not post in this section of the site anymore.
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:52 pm

Pardon me for being absent for the day...... I had company until just a few minutes ago, and could not ignore them to engage in this conversation.

If by TMarie's comment, the forum not being Christian, but the board is, it would nullify the name of the board as a Christianity Debate board, and thus it should be renamed to something more appropriate..... such as Christian to Christian Debate. Then, Christians could better congregate and engage in debate concerning the differences in Christian dogma. But as it is named now, being Christianity Debate, one should be able to freely discuss the merits of the religion, or lack there of.

I do not necessarily hate the religion. Much of my problems arise with the practitioners of the belief, who can misconstrue their religious teachings, and redefine, according to the radical levels of their dogma to cause harm to those who do not believe in their beliefs. Look at the attacks currently being placed on Muslims. Not the radical Muslims, no different than the radical Christians we more often come into contact with, and increasingly more frequent occasions. Barbara assumes, according to her beliefs that a simple biblical quote will rightfully explain why one should drop another belief and blindly fall into lock step with he brand of Christianity without question.... Problem solved, in her opinion. And to be reprimanded as a child by an administrator, who is Christian, even if not sharing the same denominational dogma as Barbara, relegates still the non Christian (IMO) to having less rights or reason to argue with Barbara than she might with us.

TMarie, as does every other Christian expects their religion to be properly treated with respect. However fails to appreciate that respect is a two way street, and in order to attain respect, it is more easily gained when respect is shown in kind. TMarie instead writes:
"Actually... ALL of you... This IS a Christianity board. The very title says, "Christianity Debate"."

There is no room left to doubt her meaning.

You don't get to say "Not a Christian board" on a CHRISTIAN BOARD.

Perhaps TMarie should come back and give us her definition of exactly what the purpose of a Christianity Debate board is. I get the distinct impression she considers it a site for only Christians to come on board and speak of the various and MANY differences of belief found with in the belief.

"You want Barbara to respect your choices... perhaps everyone should practice that."

Perhaps Barbara and TMarie could offer this same consideration. Is this asking too much from either?

'The forum is not "christian", however this board is."

Actually, the board is the Debate Board; for fact checking this, one need look no further than the very bottom of this page.. There are several forums located on the debate board.... In fact there is a forum allocated to debate almost all religions on the board. This forum is to debate Christianity. There is a laundry list of all of the other religions set up for debate if one goes to the table of context for the Debate Board. I believe that TMarie is mistaken in her statement. And I don't understand how anyone can demand respect when no respect is offered before hand.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:39 am

Ok, it's friday, I get it. I have more than enough other shit to worry about.

If a place is not what I think it is, it's not the place that needs to change to suit me.
avatar
allthegoodnamesweretaken

Posts : 2700
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : Some where in middle america

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:29 am

ALL. I received your message.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:33 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
If a place is not what I think it is, it's not the place that needs to change to suit me.

I understand your point, All. I guess it's just time to be quiet and make a few personal adjustments.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:41 pm

john5180 wrote:Bear, your objection to Barbara's post was appropriate.... brief, but appropriate. I simply expanded on it. Just because Christian is in the name of the board, IMO does not make that a Christian board..... just one where the religion is going to be discussed; we need to be clear on that. Now weather TMarie is laying low, is busy with more pressing issues, or whatever, I have not had my argument addressed. And having a bad day or not, I don't need to be admonished as though I'm a child on a debate board.... be it by what someone thinks is painting with a broad brush because she feels that she does not represent the more idiotic side of the religion, or the fact that someone spouting off biblical quotes should not be told that this board isn't where Christians go to disagree with denominational dogma, and we expect more than bible verses to make a statement. I really don't give a rip about the nuances. My complaint is being told that a Christianity Debate board is a Christian board simply because the word Christian is in the heading. What if the name of this board was "Christians Suck"? Would that make it just as much a Christian board? Or would people coming here get the idea that although Christianity is going to be in the discussion, it just may not be a place Christians want to venture unless they want to defend their faith? Let's stop ignoring the 500 pound gorilla standing in the middle of the room.

my two cents
At the other place (where I still mod)-I often have remind people that it is aboard to discuss and debate various points about Christianity not a Christian board
avatar
Davelaw

Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by john5180 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Davelaw wrote:

my two cents
At the other place (where I still mod)-I often have remind people that it is aboard to discuss and debate various points about Christianity not a Christian board

That's right, Dave. On the debate board there are many different religions set up to debate the merits of. If I were to go to the Pagan forum... here, or that other place, I would expect to be defending my religion, and my beliefs. It would only be fitting and proper that I did not take offense to what people had to say about my religion; it is their perception, after all. I would think that my job there would be to try and explain the misconceptions and in general, maybe explain the belief in a manner that would dispel the distortions, and abate the fear people who really know nothing of the belief have of it. And most definitely not try to recruit. To me, the attempt to sway someone away from their beliefs and move them into another one is the biggest insult one can give someone.
avatar
john5180

Posts : 473
Join date : 2009-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: debating?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum