debating?

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debating?

Post by morning_star222 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:08 am

Can I debate the term "debate". Who decided what religion is the "right" one anyway? Rolling Eyes confused

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Re: debating?

Post by John T Mainer on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 am

I did; and you're wrong. Unless you are the same faith as me, in which case you are doing it wrong. Unless you are doing it exactly like me, and then you are copying me which is still wrong.

This has been a fun debate.

Hi (by the way). Don't take us too seriously. Caffinate before posting, and check under bridges for trolls, because they are a problem in this part of the internet.

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Re: debating?

Post by tmarie64 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:21 am

I decide, for myself, what the right one is. Just as everyone else should.
And, John, I am seriously hoping you don't believe that this is the way Christians think.

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Re: debating?

Post by John T Mainer on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:59 pm

Of course not, but I have a manifest inability to resist free beer, my naked wife, or straight lines. One of the three will likely get me killed, but I will probably be chuckling when I go Very Happy

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Re: debating?

Post by morning_star222 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:56 pm

Maybe I was taking the whole thing a bit seriously.... i tend to get worked up when I go on forums Razz

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Re: debating?

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Well, John... I'm with on two of the three... Your naked wife doesn't appeal to me at all. LOL

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Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:01 pm

John T Mainer wrote:I did; and you're wrong. Unless you are the same faith as me, in which case you are doing it wrong. Unless you are doing it exactly like me, and then you are copying me which is still wrong.

This has been a fun debate.

Hi (by the way). Don't take us too seriously. Caffinate before posting, and check under bridges for trolls, because they are a problem in this part of the internet.

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Doing it wrong, huh..... Laughing
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Re: debating?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:34 am

Be warned
We are Master Debaters here (less the de)
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Re: debating?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:36 am

and this site was designed to be like a former site in place that will not be named (since I am still a Host over there)
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Re: debating?

Post by Southern Hick on Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:20 am

Good morning ladies and gentlemen[smile].
I admit, I have been holding back out of curiosity to see what all of the other posters would respond with.
In the past when I was filled with more angst, in answer to your inquiry I would have said that such an answer usually seems to always be determined by whichever/whomever has the best army/weapons of war...but now I would like to say that whichever religion is best for YOU personally, THAT is the right religion. Now you have to figure out what it is about a religion that makes it right for you...or anyone else.
It must be a personal decision, for no one, not even a King, has the right to choose such a thing for everyone.
So in trying to make up one's mind on the matter....
Does it just make you feel all warm and spiritually secure?
Does it help justify all of your self-centered and/or bigoted actions and words?
Does it help you become or keep being a better person in society?
Does it just seem to be supported by the most evidences, and therefor seem the most truthful, even if those truths are hard to accept or unpleasant to listen to?

Or,...can you become and/or stay a better person in society, act good and posses good moral integrity, and feel happy and contented WITHOUT any religion at all?

I am of the opinion that good people will be good and stay good regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, and that crazy or evil people will be crazy or evil regardless of what THEIR religion may be[or lack thereof], because good people will always be able to find beauty and knowledge within just about any religion, and ways to promote goodness in the world[with or without the help of religion], and that the wicked will always find some way to pervert things to satisfy or justify their desires and actions.

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Re: debating?

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:33 pm

Southern Hick. Reading your post is in line or close to what I say to others who hold/are members of a different Religion.

If your Religion/Belief makes yo a more loving & caring person. Then thats the right Religion/Belief for you.

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Re: debating?

Post by John T Mainer on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 pm

Does it just make you feel all warm and spiritually secure?
>> No and yes.

Does it help justify all of your self-centered and/or bigoted actions and words?
>>No help at all. Doesn't stretch no matter how you try.

Does it help you become or keep being a better person in society?
>>Wonderful instructor, how you listen and follow is your choice.

Does it just seem to be supported by the most evidences, and therefor seem the most truthful, even if those truths are hard to accept or unpleasant to listen to?
>>World accepting religion, not a "faith" as we are not expected to believe in what we cannot see for ourselves, nor deny what we can see. It brings warmth strength joy and laughter when such is appropriate, but is hard cold and without mercy or forgiveness when duty demands. Life is hard, then you die, deal with it.


Or,...can you become and/or stay a better person in society, act good and posses good moral integrity, and feel happy and contented WITHOUT any religion at all?
>>Why or? If my way of life is a tool for me to become a better person does that somehow invalidate your choices? Seems weak and foolish to need my words to justify your choices; I neither see your choices nor live with their consequences, so what good is my say so to you?
>>Can you become a better person in society (etc) without it? Sure, you can be a total waste of skin with it too. Just because you had a good instructor does not mean you will put it to good use. After all Critias was a student of no lesser ethicist than Socrates, yet went on to become one of the Thirty Tyrants, described by Socrates as "having been freed of all constraints of fear of the gods, running lose with no more between his will and the world than a wolf has". So much for a student of Virtue Ethics.

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Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Your post makes me wonder, Southern Hick, about the different ways beliefs are presented. It does seem that a good majority of the population picks a belief system because it is what most agrees with their attitudes, is most prevalent in their culture, or is reactionary to that culture.
In that line of reasoning, your questions would make sense. As such, likely for a good majority of persons, your questions would likely be good ones.

For myself, and several others here though, it doesn't work. I didn't "choose" to "believe" what I do anymore than I chose to have blue eyes. This is the way that it is.

I don't ask that others believe what I do. I don't claim to have a monopoly on belief. I just ask for the same courtesy.

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Re: debating?

Post by Southern Hick on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:55 pm

Good evening ladies and gentlemen[smile].
Although I was happy to read your replies in regards to them, the questions I listed within my last post were not intended to be dichotomous questions directed at the members here, I was just trying to be somewhat theoretical/philosophical......I didn't actually have anyone in particular in my mind when I types those. Cool Wink
For example, that second one..."Does it help justify all your self-centered and/or bigoted actions and words?"...did you really think I was directing that at you all? Now it's true that I don't know all of you very well[yet], I wouldn't be so rude as to assume that some of you here would use religion thus.

[Sighs]
Perhaps I should have just typed the third and fifth sentence and the last paragraph in that post and left it at that?

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Re: debating?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:55 pm

I sort of agree with all. Sort of.

You see I did not choose to believe in the gods, it was not a concious decision that one day I simply decided to move from an athiestic to polytheistic perspective; my experience did not allow for me to believe other than what I experienced.

How I chose (at the time) and continue to choose to understand those experiences, was from a specific religious perspective. I suppose that now, more so than then, I would likely be less inclined to say my perspective is a choice. But after the initial and subsequent experiences, there was a concerted effort to understand from what would have been a newly adopted lens to interpret from.

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Re: debating?

Post by John T Mainer on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:08 pm

How about this:

In this life, my task is to understand both who I am, and who I want myself to be. To build upon what I continue to discover about who I am, and build towards who I want to be, I take such instruction as I find useful from such sources and individuals I judge both worthy and applicable.

I have found in the teachings Asatru, in the companionship of my kindred tools that have made these tasks both simpler and more joyful. The same is true about my wife and children, who have taught me much both of who I am, and who I need to become. The same is true of my friends, whom I am glad to aid as I may, to repay for the support and encouragement they bring to me, whether they mean to or not.

If you were to write a statement that said first what you felt your goal in this life was, and second how your beliefs fit into this goal, how would you define your journey?

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Re: debating?

Post by Southern Hick on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:17 pm

Good evening[smile].
I like how you put that, John T Mainer. Very Happy
As to your good last sentence...Hummmmmmmmm................
I shall have to meditate upon that and get back to you. That is not an easy thing for me to quickly respond back to.

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Re: debating?

Post by Guest on Tue May 01, 2012 7:36 pm

If you had asked me about this, oh about 14 years ago I would,ve given you the standard Christian answer & response. But I left ( turned away ) Christianity in 2000. Since then my own Spiritual beliefs have been evolving into something different from the rest of you here. But in a same way also into possibly a amalgram of different Faiths & Beliefs. I think that each of us have to find our own Spiritual path whatever it might be, unless it involves or promotes violence. As I said earlier in this thread. If what we individually believe helps us to become more Loving & Caring then that's the right one for you & all of the others here. Am I making any sense to all here?

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Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu May 03, 2012 11:36 am

I'm hard pressed to think of a spiritual path that promotes violent behavior in and of itself.

I want to state that specifically loving and caring are, IMHO, results, and not the complete picture at that.

Even I find, in following what could be described as a "warrior path", that violent behavior and violence are not what is promoted. More a pragmatism and a realism, and a focus on actions that are appropriate. If someone attacks you, and has the intent of doing harm, subdue them. By any means necessary. This may seem violent. But, when the time for violence is passed, when the threat is subdued. Offer first aid to the attacker if appropriate.

I think we are missing the boat if we don't address the whole of us, and instead just focus on being more "loving and caring".

But yes, what you said makes sense.
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Re: debating?

Post by Willowcreek70633 on Fri May 04, 2012 1:26 am

Right now, I cannot "debate" about religion, belief, faiths, or the experiences that endear us. It is hard enough to take care of one's self, physically, mentally & spiritually through the follies & joys of our own lives.

When out & about in the world it amazes me that people are still trying to debate their outlooks on any given subject w others. Someone that is willing to debate, place all cards on the table, about belief systems ...is hunting for acceptance of self.
I do not wish for anyone to understand, or uphold my spiritual awareness other than me. The path that I walk is my own path solely unto me.
My spirituality does not need to be justified to anyone but me.

In closing I do not wear my spirituality on my sleeve nor wave it as a banner for all to see. I choose to have a personal relationship with my Spirit. I will & do respect others views, & listen willingly (ending up finding a similarity) & a needed learning experience! I do not debate not even if it is for the "right" or the "wrong" the justified or the demeaning. I choose to try to embrace all that is out there....for I do not know everything, nor do I claim to have any or all answers. I choose to keep some aspects in my life a mystery. For not all questions that human kind has can be answered.
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Re: debating?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri May 04, 2012 10:38 am

I'd say I am in a transition. I used to really like to debate such topics as you describe Willow. Of course, this was when I was trying to figure it out for myself.

Now, I don't really seek out people to debate with. I still will argue with someone that is wrong, IMO, but I don't try to find them or hang out where I know they will show up.
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Re: debating?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri May 04, 2012 5:44 pm

While I can not say I "wear my religion on my sleeve", because I have no outwardly obvious ornamentation of my religion, nor would most folk even recognize such a symbol were they to see it.

I can, however, say that it is a lifeway which I live each and every day; so in every word and deed, it is present. I'm certainly willing and open to discuss it if anyone asks me about it; but I find myself speaking more often to others about their own positions and views, and only mentioning mine should it come up.

Working, as I do, for a Catholic funeral home, with a predominantly Catholic base, as well as Catholic co-workers (though most are more appropriately cultural Catholics), does allow for some discussion but as I find that my own knowledge of the religion out stripes those who state their adherence to it, thoughtful discussions are not particularly frequent.

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Re: debating?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Fri May 04, 2012 5:47 pm

I have only ever come across one individual, and he had apparently converted from it, who claimed to have been a diabolic Satanist. I am hard pressed to think of another belief system where violence and evil for the sake of evil are held to be tenets. Mind, I'm doubtful that this fellow was in actuality so, but stranger things have happened.

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Re: debating?

Post by John T Mainer on Fri May 04, 2012 8:48 pm

You know, I don't believe that becoming more loving and caring is any more automatically a right thing to do than losing ten pounds is automatically a good thing either. If you don't take into account your own circumstances, then what "everyone knows" is best may just be really, really unwise.

Understanding yourself, what motivates you, what your strengths and weaknesses are, these are important. Understanding others, who is important to you, what their needs and motivations are, these are important.

There are some people whose negative reaction to you or life just make a waste of effort to interact with. There are lots of people who can bring great benefit to your life, and who could benefit from your being in their life. There are people who are actively working against you because they wish to. Recognizing each, and finding a way to interact that maximizes your success and enjoyment is good.

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Re: debating?

Post by gillyflower on Sun May 06, 2012 8:27 am

That is a lesson that is really important to learn, to walk away from people who are not good for you, no matter if they are relatives, old friends or co-workers. I usually have so much guilt about doing that, even when I've been shown over and over that someone is toxic and they aren't going to change.

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