Anyone here?

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:52 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Ooohh! Cap used the BS word!

Yeah... I tend to have that affect on people........ Twisted Evil
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:54 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Ooohh! Cap used the BS word!
Embarassed it doesn't count if I am quoting....................................does it? Embarassed

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:49 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Ooohh! Cap used the BS word!

When Cap loses her cool, you know it's on.

It's like that little guy in kung fu movies that stands in the middle while all the henchmen are fighting. You know it's on when he gets involved....
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:28 pm

Boy, I love you people Group Hug I love you

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 pm

I hate saying it, but I am seriously annoyed over. Which is dumb, but none the less.

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:22 pm

We love you too Cap.

I'd probably be annoyed with em too, but I saw the writing on the wall for bnet back when they canned me and Joe.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

You know, I quit when they fired Bree. A while back, they issued a fairly clumsy offer to mod again. I don't think they understand I can't be bothered. And who was it here to tried to delete their account to no avail?

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:39 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:You know, I quit when they fired Bree. A while back, they issued a fairly clumsy offer to mod again. I don't think they understand I can't be bothered. And who was it here to tried to delete their account to no avail?

Um... That would be me. I even sent Merope an email asking her to block me. She declined my offer; the silly girl just don't know the can of worms she may have opened.

Maybe B'net is the REALtm Hotel California!
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:44 am

*headdesk*
Merope sent me a message about that hateful article they posted to B'net that they finally took down.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2012/04/beliefnet-news-conflates-paganism-and-harry-potter-with-witchcraft-killings.html

Here's the message she sent me.

Original Message:

From: Merope

Subject: That Paganism Article

Sent: Jun 7, 10:48PM

Hi, SG,

I'm writing to explain - as I will explain to all members who posted to the thread on the Multifaith Forum about the article - that management is addressing the article now because they only just began receiving complaints about it. Unfortunately, no member - not even folks posting to the thread - complained to the community moderation team (Stardove, Rangerken, and I) or to MarySara, the host of the Multifaith Forum. And no member sent any complaint to the Community Mailbox (community@beliefnetstaff.com) or to the Beliefnet_community profile. So we had no way of knowing there was a problem :-(

Yes, management should not have allowed the article in the first instance. That was a mistake on their part for which they have apologized. They've also read this thread, so they know they need to be more sensitive to Paganism, generally, and to the Pagan community on Beliefnet.

Please know that you and all members are welcome and encouraged to bring any complaints about the site to Rangerken, Stadove, me, or the Beliefnet_community profile. We'll forward them to management and get them resolved.

Many thanks for your understanding,

Merope Beliefnet
Community Manager

And here was my response:

You know, we didn't complain, because there is an impression around here that it wouldn't do any good. Ask All. He will tell you.

I don't know why we stay here. Gods help me, I really don't. It's like an abusive relationship we just can't let go of. We've invested too much, and think to highly of the ideals that originally set this place up, I suppose.

But Cap is getting abused by Addy on the Discuss Christianity board, with no one putting a stop to it. Pagan bashing articles are going up on the articles section. The pagan boards have been dead for years, because we haven't felt welcome as a religious group since the days of the yellow boards. Maybe that wasn't ever the intention, but it's the reality.

You have a few of us old timers who have stuck around for the sake of the good old days, but now we are friending each other of FB, and pretty much leaving this place behind. And that is sad.

This place has a lot of potential for interfaith conversation, but I find any discussion with a handful of Christians ends up being less about learning to understand each other, or finding common ground and more about them telling me why they are better than me, because of their religion, or their god, or whatnot.

Merope, whether we complained to you are not — this stuff goes up under the name of Beliefnet. I work for a newspaper. I know editing processes. If you are not having these things read for how they represent you, then you are being foolish.

I know it's not a big thing in other circles, but Jason Pitzl-Waters, the big kahuna in Pagan news found your little story and announced it was there to the world: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2012/04/beliefnet-news-conflates-paganism-and-harry-potter-with-witchcraft-killings.html

So, people who never had heard of Beliefnet before had their first experience with it be that hateful article. You say it should never have happened in the first place, so why did it? Ten years ago, you might have put it up without anyone noticing. In this time, everything is noticed by everyone.

A good rule of thumb is to never load anything to the web that you wouldn't want splashed across the front page of the New York Times.

I am going to take a break now. I have had enough of the hate. Enough of getting blamed because I didn't speak up on a website that doesn't seem to care anyway.

Best of luck in the next wave of the pagan exodus. And enjoy the Christians only website you seem to want to badly here.




I may not have handled well, but that was the best I can do, given the circumstances.

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:00 am

I think you did ok.

Here's how mine went.

Merope as Bnet comunity:

Hi, all -

The reason for the delay in pulling the article is that complaints only just began rolling in :-( And nobody on the Community moderation team (Stardove, Rangerken, and me - Merope) received any feedback from members about the article :-(

I'll be asking all our hosts to check their forums more frequently for member complaints about the site so that we can address those complaints and forward them to management.

So please feel free to email us - Rangerken, Stardove, me, and/or the Beliefnet_community profile - with any issues you have about the site.

Thanks so much!

Merope
Beliefnet Community Manager

My response:

"If I may, it is a consistant feature of all areas that are related to some form of "service" that for the most part, people actually don't complain. They just feel unwelcome and either stop coming, or don't start.

From my perspective as a long time member, and someone who is in touch with other long time members, that there are issues. I know people complain, as it is in their nature, and some complaints and dissatisfication is to be expected. However, in the recent year or so I have seen irate long time members become fed up and leave, and participation on several of the more active boards that I frequent all but dry up.

This points to an issue on Bnet's part. This article is only a symptom of that issue, not the cause.

Obviously the pagan community on bnet and elsewhere had an issue with the article, as they have chosen to address it.

If the fact that an issue was had by pagan communities is something that Bnet wishes to address, it would behove them to ask why the problems were there in the first place, and how such could be avoided in the future. How did this article make it to the factual pages of a supposedly multifaith religious community, and why did it stay there for as long as it did? Who if anyone checks the authenticity of the claims?

Another thing that I am hearing is about one of the moderators specifically. Now, I understand that being a moderator is a thankless job, and when I did it, I used to feel that as long as I was getting complaints from both sides equally, I was probably doing my job. I can only urge you to look at these more deeply, as the complaints are coming from individuals that have participated on the site for longer than I have (since 2005ish) and have stuck with the multitude of site changes that have occurred. It looks like it is getting to a point where they will finally get fed up and leave. "

I was trying to be as nice as I could, and thought that I might be able to try to bridge the gap since I hadn't gotten into it yet
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:58 am

In regards to that article..... All, I think you and SG handled that situation with tact and diplomacy on a level that I could never hope to attain. I'm so happy that issue was addressed to you, and not to me. I would have gotten so angered, I might have just burned my computer in protest.

I do, however, wish I had known about this sooner. I would have addressed it in my rants to Merope about the abuse Addy's dishing out to posters like MC, and that other poor woman that I can't recall her name. It would have closed the loop for me to be sure. Finding out about this now makes it easier to sever a twelve year relationship on a board that in the beginning gave me an world view of other Pagans in other parts of the world I had not had the privilege of knowing before. To say that I made some long lasting friends, the type that seems more like family, is an understatement. But cutting all ties to B'net (as SG pointed out) does not mean I must sever ties with those friends I made there. This makes the leaving process easier, IMO.

Although I feel strongly that the eloquent replies All and SG sent back to Merope will no doubt fall on deaf ears, I want to thank you both for making them and doing it in a most gracious manner befitting your spiritual training. Once again, a pair of Pagans rose above Christian bigotry and proved themselves more worthy.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:27 am

Just dropped this bomb over on multifaith. Since I fully expect it to be deleted, here it is:






Jun 8, 2012 -- 12:24AM, Ferretling wrote:


What I find bothersome is that they took it down from its very prominent position, but did not write a news article apologizing. No, they tuck away the apology here, where only those bothering to read the Multifaith Board will see it. To me this says a couple things. The first is that they don't actually care. The second is that they are not really sorry. The third is that they don't worry themselves about the concerns or feelings of any of their non-Christian members.

I am a former pagan (now Zen Buddhist), and I found the article highly offensive.

But what I find even more offensive is that there is no public statement on the same page from the so-called writer who spewed the idiocy, nor from Beliefnet itself. Put the apology and retraction on the page where everyone can see it, not tucked away here in a seldom-visited forum.

Better yet, fire the guy.


Jun 8, 2012 -- 7:23AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:
This. This is what should happen. If you are going to take it down, at least explain why, don't just pretend it never happened.

Me:

I think a public apology, in May, would have helped somewhat. With this specific issue. From my perspective, this whole thing really is a symptom of how things have become here. SG, you remember back in the days of the yellow boards, when Multi faith was jumping, pagan fellowship boards were lively, and the discussion boards of several different faiths were managing to fill their front pages with new discussions almost twice a day. Now look at it. Christianity debate is more like C2C, there are boards on multifaith that haven't had a new post for months, and some of the reconstructionist boards have never been posted on.

Why did this occur? What could possibly make a happy, vibrant community pack up and search for greener pastures, because we all know they are out there on other boards. practitioners of non Christian religions in the US pretty much need the interaction that the internet provides.

My idea of how it happened.

1. Bnet sold to Fox.

Sorry to fulfill Godwins Law here, but that is like having Hitler babysit your Jewish grandkids.

2. Bnet canned many of it's "Hosts". People who had hosted for years, and knew the rules, knew how to enforce them, and knew how to be fair about it. People who helped to build the community into something that would be attractive to potential purchasers in the first place.

3. Bnet changed it's format into unintelligible nonsense not once but twice. Yeah, there were problems with the yellow boards. At least we could post outside pics and vids without jumping through 30 hoops to do so.

4. Bnet changed from a multifaith religious board to a facebook wanna be. That's like buying a pasture because it is a picturesque setting with cows, building a sky skyscraper, and complaining that there are no cows left. If you want a multifaith community, have a damn multifaith community. Did you guys ever thing that if Bnet members wanted to post blogs and network we'd go to places where we could blog and network? We're not exactly computer illiterate here.

5. Bnet got rid of a lot of staff. I for one miss Bree.

6. Bnet implemented a post modification feature for the "hosts". I'll admit, when I was a host, I thought this was a good idea. In practice it does not turn out to be. One person wields way to much power.

7. Current Bnet staff is ignorant about multifaith relations. I have complained in the past that new members who stumble upon, and seem to want to discuss multifaith tend only to think of multifaith as "the big three". Staff here, for the most part, seems to as well. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with ignorance. There are many topics out there that I am ignorant on. The trick is recognizing the fact that you don't know something, and being honest enough to not pretend to be knowledgeable about it. If there is a topic that you feel you need to address, it is not that hard to find persons that are knowledgeable of the subject matter. Buffy the vampire slayer is not a good source of information about paganism. Some crackpot that killed kids and said that Harry Potter made them do it is not indicative of paganism. I have never heard pagans express even the slightest desire to hold human sacrifices, so any reference to only being held back by HHS is almost criminally negligent.

All of these combined make this place not receptive to the diversity that it once had. Even good members of an open minded nature that happen to be Christian have left. Where are the Mongos, or Brother Yossarins? Sure, there are some stragglers. People longing for the glory days.

Still, I feel that most of them are probably like me. We've left the door open to Bnet, and gone through it many times. I still check here every once and a while to see what is going on. If the door shut though, I wouldn't try to re open it again.


all
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:38 am

john5180 wrote:In regards to that article..... All, I think you and SG handled that situation with tact and diplomacy on a level that I could never hope to attain. I'm so happy that issue was addressed to you, and not to me. I would have gotten so angered, I might have just burned my computer in protest.

I do, however, wish I had known about this sooner. I would have addressed it in my rants to Merope about the abuse Addy's dishing out to posters like MC, and that other poor woman that I can't recall her name. It would have closed the loop for me to be sure. Finding out about this now makes it easier to sever a twelve year relationship on a board that in the beginning gave me an world view of other Pagans in other parts of the world I had not had the privilege of knowing before. To say that I made some long lasting friends, the type that seems more like family, is an understatement. But cutting all ties to B'net (as SG pointed out) does not mean I must sever ties with those friends I made there. This makes the leaving process easier, IMO.

Although I feel strongly that the eloquent replies All and SG sent back to Merope will no doubt fall on deaf ears, I want to thank you both for making them and doing it in a most gracious manner befitting your spiritual training. Once again, a pair of Pagans rose above Christian bigotry and proved themselves more worthy.

I have severed the relationship that I have had with the board several times. It remains that over there is the place that I was introduced to Heathenry, not by books and stories, but by Heathens. Without that, even with my UPG's, I would likely only be a guy that thought the vikings were cool.

In contrast to other times that I have "flamed" out, I find myself admitting that I'll probably ride them all the way down as they crash and burn, but that probably means that I'll be done, and this time it'll stick.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by MaineCaptain on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:00 pm

You have all done wonderfully.

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by Davelaw on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:27 pm

Would a word from me, help on Discuss Christianity? I objected to Addie coming in-she is advocate for her positions-but she is not a fair mod.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:47 pm

Couldn't hurt...
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by MaineCaptain on Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:36 pm

Dave, I don't know, but I do trust you, and respect you

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by John T Mainer on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:30 pm

I pretty much saw the writing on the walls when Fox took over. Within a few months, any right wing extremist Christian was free to indulge in ad-hominums, but anyone daring to fight back, even restricting themselves to attacks on the arguements, and not the posters, was moderated and threatened. Quoting the relevant sections of the code of conduct and asking for clarification as to either what parts of my own posts qualified as objectionable, and what part of the direct threats, criminal accusations and slander, and curses upon my whole family failed to meet the same standards showed how the peace was to be kept.

Rather than stoop into the slime, I chose to largely avoid pointless strife on indefensible ground.

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:26 am

Davelaw wrote:Would a word from me, help on Discuss Christianity? I objected to Addie coming in-she is advocate for her positions-but she is not a fair mod.

Quite frankly, Dave, although I appreciate the offer, I don't think it would help our problem, or serve to endear you to the staff. A week ago, when I complained to Merope in an email to her, she said she was going to talk to you and Addy about the situation. I told her that as far as I was concerned, you were as fair as anyone should have the right to expect..... (remember now, no one likes to have their posts removed, but there are times when someone is so offensive it's warranted). Has she ever discussed this issue with you? It has been several days now.
On a thread that she started (Something about human dignity), a poster named Blu gave a reply to her opening post. Addy's response was to call it vacuous. As a lawyer, I imagine you know the definition of the word, but to save those who don't, it means "empty".
Her original post: [quote author=33460124 post=520423951]A discussion on the "Conception to Birth" thread prompts me to ask as a Christian: without reference to God, what is the basis upon which others affirm human dignity?[/quote]

Here is Blu's post followed by Addy's reply to it..... [quote author=34650529 post=520425755]

I'd say empathy, and (like the golden rule) our sense that fairness and reciprocity are good things.

[/quote]

[quote author=33460124 post=520428695]Well, I do (again) thank you for stepping forward with a concept.

"Our 'sense'."

"Are 'good things'."

Here's a selection from the all-time Top 40 Good Things:

1. Our favorite approach to cooking comes from the kitchens of France and can be adapted to any recipe. The term "mise en place" refers to the advance preparation of a dish's ingredients; all should be measured, chopped, diced, or sliced according to recipe instructions before you begin.

2. City dwellers who spend the weekend at a country home may not know what poison ivy looks like, or whether they are allergic to it. As a friendly precaution, a color picture can be laminated and hung by the door or packed for a hike.

3. When citrus, herbs, and other bright ingredients are added to a pitcher, water is deliciously transformed. For citrus-rosemary water, use lime slices, large strips of orange zest, and gently crushed rosemary sprigs. For ginger-cucumber water, try sliced ginger, cucumber ribbons, and mint sprigs. Steep ingredients in water, refrigerated, for an hour.

Do you share Martha's "sense" of "good things"?

Is this a solid foundation upon which to affirm human dignity?

[/quote]


Jun 4, 2012 -- 2:27AM, Blü wrote:


I'd say empathy, and (like the golden rule) our sense that fairness and reciprocity are good things.



Well, I do (again) thank you for stepping forward with a concept.

"Our 'sense'."

"Are 'good things'."

Here's a selection from the all-time Top 40 Good Things:

1. Our favorite approach to cooking comes from the kitchens of France and can be adapted to any recipe. The term "mise en place" refers to the advance preparation of a dish's ingredients; all should be measured, chopped, diced, or sliced according to recipe instructions before you begin.

2. City dwellers who spend the weekend at a country home may not know what poison ivy looks like, or whether they are allergic to it. As a friendly precaution, a color picture can be laminated and hung by the door or packed for a hike.

3. When citrus, herbs, and other bright ingredients are added to a pitcher, water is deliciously transformed. For citrus-rosemary water, use lime slices, large strips of orange zest, and gently crushed rosemary sprigs. For ginger-cucumber water, try sliced ginger, cucumber ribbons, and mint sprigs. Steep ingredients in water, refrigerated, for an hour.

Do you share Martha's "sense" of "good things"?

Is this a solid foundation upon which to affirm human dignity?
Moderated by Merope on Jun 07, 2012 - 01:35AM

As you can see, Merope edited out the vacuous dig, but if you look at the rest of the post, it drips with unnecessary sarcasm. And this....... person...... this woman is still a host! Do you in all honesty think that confronting anyone about this would do anyone a favor?! I'll tell you the worst case scenario, Dave, they'd fire you, and there would be no balance left at all on that board. Best case; let those of us who have had enough just leave them to stew in their own juices, and after all, save those who agree with this particular Christian attitude, (which I describe with tongue firmly planted in cheek), then we can wait for them to turn on one another and devour themselves.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:54 am

Davelaw wrote:Would a word from me, help on Discuss Christianity? I objected to Addie coming in-she is advocate for her positions-but she is not a fair mod.
Probably not, Dave. Here's why.... When I last spoke to Merope through email, she was going to talk to you and Addy about the heavy handedness by the mods. I told her that you were not the problem, and that you were as fair and balanced as anyone had the right to expect. Later, I reported two posts on a thread Addy started where she insulted a poster named Blu, calling a reply to her opening salvo vacuous. To those who don't know the definition, it means "empty, or lacking clarity". Two days after I reported it, the post was edited by Merope, removing the vacuous line, but leaving the rest of the post which dripped with sarcasm. The thread is titled Basis for Human Dignity I was amazed that she could spell the damn word dignity, for judging by her posts, she has no respect for it.

I would imagine that if you were to pursue this, it would do nothing more than get you removed as a host, and there wouldn't be even a shred of fair and balanced left on the entire board! My best advice is DON'T. Let everyone else, except those who share Addy's concept of Christianity leave, and then sit back and watch them turn on each other, and devour themselves. Of course, you'll have to come here and report it, for I have no intentions of spending any more time there than what it takes to report every smart assed post Addy unleashes on other posters. That is my new mission in life... To lie in the tall grass, and report every underhanded thing she does until such time as Merope gets enough, and either bans me from Belief Net, or removes Addy as a community host. I have nothing to loose in this, and everything to gain. But if I were you, and as important as you are for giving even handedness and balance to the CD board, I wouldn't go and toss myself under the bus.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by Davelaw on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:57 am

and no I have not heard a word from Merope about anything except BNET being down
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:04 am

I have to get used to this forum again.... I tried to delete the extra posts I somehow piled on there, but to no avail..... Just ignore them.
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by john5180 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:07 am

Davelaw wrote:and no I have not heard a word from Merope about anything except BNET being down

I last emailed Merope on June 2nd. Doncha think that if she intended to speak to anyone, it would have been accomplished by now?
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Re: Anyone here?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:37 am

Check out yesterday's Wild Hunt, folks. The shit is hitting the fan. Oh, and John, I am on my phone at the moment, but when I get ten minutes and a computer, I will delete your extra post for you. Smile

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Re: Anyone here?

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:06 am

John T Mainer wrote:I pretty much saw the writing on the walls when Fox took over. Within a few months, any right wing extremist Christian was free to indulge in ad-hominums, but anyone daring to fight back, even restricting themselves to attacks on the arguements, and not the posters, was moderated and threatened. Quoting the relevant sections of the code of conduct and asking for clarification as to either what parts of my own posts qualified as objectionable, and what part of the direct threats, criminal accusations and slander, and curses upon my whole family failed to meet the same standards showed how the peace was to be kept.

Rather than stoop into the slime, I chose to largely avoid pointless strife on indefensible ground.

Just after Fox took over, I was canned as a mod because I "used my position as a moderator to censure people who were only posting their beliefs".

That's when we had that big exodus over to BCorner, which turned out to be more horrifically biased than Bnet.
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