A Study of Morality

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:52 pm

The Adam and Eve myth is a myth.

Myth
1. A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

So the minute you write "Adam and Eve" the main characters in the Christian myth then you are writing about a myth. It seems to me that the person you reference is putting his own spin on a Christian myth, rewriting it so that it presents his religion. Nothing wrong with that: lots of groups borrow myths from other groups and rewrite them. It is best however to know where your myths come from, acknowledge it, and know why and where you changed the myth.

I am familiar with the terminology and metaphysical/occult concepts in my own religion. When talking with people outside my religion I have found it best to define the terms so that everyone is on the same page.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Turtle dove on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:56 pm

In effect your definition means that all religions are mythical and there is no meaning except for individual interpretations. Correct?

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:00 pm

No, it means that stories within the religions and culture, that teach a certain thing of importance to the culture or religion are myths. Within that culture or religion it has a tradition interpretation that may or may not make sense to outsiders.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Turtle dove on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:10 pm

Can myths be regarded as truth, or do some myths contain more truth than others or does that depend on the individual?

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:13 pm

Turtle dove wrote:Can myths be regarded as truth, or do some myths contain more truth than others or does that depend on the individual?

I don't understand what you are asking TD.
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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Myths, like family stories, can happen exactly as told, sort of like told, have a few details that are real (like the names of real people or real places) or be complete fabrications. The human race is a race of story tellers. The tellers often add their own embellishments over time.

As for "truth" how are defining it?

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:29 pm

If there is a situation, within a story, that it could not have come about but by supernatural means, then there is a good chance that it is a myth.
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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Turtle dove on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:37 pm

Let me see if I can explain, oh nameless one.

Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. think that their sacred books contain true stories although there are people who think some stories are allegories. But allegories are a different way of telling the truth in religions, or so religious people believe.

What I am trying to say is that a Christian, Hindu or Muslim does not think their sacred books contain myths.
What you call myths is truth to the religious person.

When you talk about the myth of Jesus does it mean you do not believe he actually lived about 2000 years ago?

When the word myth is used in everyday language it indicates that something is a fairy tale.

Not sure if it is clear but my brain may already be half asleep. It is way past midnight where I am. I will think about it some more. Interesting. It is the first time that I hear myth used in this way.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:55 pm

Of course the religious person of a particular faith will be offended when someone claims that a part of their doctrine is a myth. The Muslim truly believes the stories surrounding Muhamad and Allah, specifically ones involving supernatural claims. Do you see them as true or myth?

Whether or not a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago is inconsequential. There WERE those with that name. Did he do as the bible claims? It cannot be proven. Did he "walk on water"? Did he "feed thousands of people"? Doubtful. Do the stories make an analogy about who the early christians wanted others to be impressed about? Perhaps so.

As for "Adam and Eve", I can make a sincere statement that the story is analogy at best. . . . . . . and quite frankly, not that good of one. But that is my opinion, and not meant to offend you.
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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:57 pm

Turtle dove wrote:Let me see if I can explain, oh nameless one.

"all" is fine.


Turtle dove wrote:

What I am trying to say is that a Christian, Hindu or Muslim does not think their sacred books contain myths.
What you call myths is truth to the religious person.

I am a religious person, just not one of the popular ones that you mentioned. I recognize the writings as the myth they are. That doesn't mean that I don't find them meaning.

Turtle dove wrote:

When you talk about the myth of Jesus does it mean you do not believe he actually lived about 2000 years ago?

I really don't care.

Turtle dove wrote:

When the word myth is used in everyday language it indicates that something is a fairy tale.

That's because the predominate religions don't recognize their own myths as myths. They have no problem recognizing the writings of other religions as myths, but not their own.

Turtle dove wrote:

Not sure if it is clear but my brain may already be half asleep. It is way past midnight where I am. I will think about it some more. Interesting. It is the first time that I hear myth used in this way.

It's the dictionary definition. We've found that it's easier to use standard definitions than ones that might be regional, or what is used in "common everyday language". Saves time.

all
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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:03 pm

You will find that here (YS) the term myth is (if I may make a broad, sweeping general statement) understood through the traditional meaning of mythology: referring to stories which pertain to particular cultures or religions, which reveal world views, narratives, symbolism and meaning within those particular contexts. Myth, in essence, is one of the ways in which meaning or understanding is projected/imparted from experience.

This, as opposed to the more modern parlance as myth as falsehood.

I am somewhat skeptical of the historic personage of Jesus of Nazareth, so yes when I refer to the myth of Jesus (or the narrative of the NT) I would refer to is as Christian mythology.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:34 pm

Deavon said: "Do you see them as true or myth?"

Calling something a myth, Deavon, says absolutely nothing about whether it is fiction or non-fiction. It is simply a story that teaches something important to that group.

Turtle Dove, you seem to be defining "truth" as something that is important to a religious (or secular) group. As such, truth does not mean "real." A group could believe something that is counter to logic and reality and it could still be considered a truth to that group.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by DeavonReye on Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:08 pm

Right, but to TD, the miracles of Islam may be seen as myth. My point is that one persons' myth is another person's "strong religious truth", and usually something that literally happened. For instance, christians and the belief in the literal Adam and Eve story.
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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:22 pm

Myth is trying to explain something than can't be said, by trying to actually say it. Wink

You know, the hero with a thousand faces. Very Happy

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:40 pm

DeavonReye wrote:Right, but to TD, the miracles of Islam may be seen as myth. My point is that one persons' myth is another person's "strong religious truth", and usually something that literally happened. For instance, christians and the belief in the literal Adam and Eve story.

Ach! LOL you are still seeing myth in a non-traditional way. Myth = story It doesn't matter that one group has a different non-traditional definition for myth, and uses it to mean "not true." The word "myth" doesn't have a true/not true value. Christians can believe that the Adam and Eve myth is something that really happened and it is still a myth - a story that has meaning within the religion, that teaches lessons just as the Greek myths have meaning within the Greek/Roman religions and culture and teach lessons.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:45 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Myth is trying to explain something than can't be said, by trying to actually say it. Wink

You know, the hero with a thousand faces. Very Happy

Yep, like Jesus was fond of teaching lessons through parables. It did not really matter if the things happened as told, the story was important because of the lessons that were taught through it.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:47 pm

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Myth is trying to explain something than can't be said, by trying to actually say it. Wink

You know, the hero with a thousand faces. Very Happy

Never was a big fan of Campbell myself, never really bought into the idea of "mono-myth", too much variation to so broadly paint every culture with the same brush.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Turtle dove on Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:49 am

DeavonReye wrote:Of course the religious person of a particular faith will be offended when someone claims that a part of their doctrine is a myth. The Muslim truly believes the stories surrounding Muhamad and Allah, specifically ones involving supernatural claims. Do you see them as true or myth? Let's say there is truth presented as allegory. The Bible, for example, has been changed, adapted and translated many times.

Whether or not a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago is inconsequential. I agree. There WERE those with that name. Did he do as the bible claims? It cannot be proven. Did he "walk on water"? Did he "feed thousands of people"? Doubtful. Do the stories make an analogy about who the early christians wanted others to be impressed about? Perhaps so.

As for "Adam and Eve", I can make a sincere statement that the story is analogy at best. . . . . . . and quite frankly, not that good of one. But that is my opinion, and not meant to offend you.

I am extremely difficult to offend and anger.

The story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. According to Theosophy (and I believe Edgar Cayce also), Adam was 5 races--the white, yellow, black, red and brown races--that appeared in different portions of the globe. When Eve joined sexless Adam, Adam became male and female.


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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:45 am

Turtle dove wrote:
I am extremely difficult to offend and anger.

Good to know.

Turtle dove wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. According to Theosophy (and I believe Edgar Cayce also), Adam was 5 races--the white, yellow, black, red and brown races--that appeared in different portions of the globe. When Eve joined sexless Adam, Adam became male and female.


I think that the different creation stories of other cultures describe different events. Just because the Abrahamatic faiths will insist that their god is the only one doesn't make it so.

all

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:48 am

That is your own interpretation, of course. Others within the religion will interpret the myth in a different way. There is the tradition interpretations and non-traditional interpretations. You are basically taking a Christian myth and retelling it as your own to make it tell the lesson you want it to tell.

Do you understand how you have changed it? Do you think it would be more ethical to change the names of Adam and Eve so that you are telling a non-Christian myth for the religion/group that you belong to?

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:53 am

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Turtle dove wrote:
I am extremely difficult to offend and anger.

Good to know.

Turtle dove wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. According to Theosophy (and I believe Edgar Cayce also), Adam was 5 races--the white, yellow, black, red and brown races--that appeared in different portions of the globe. When Eve joined sexless Adam, Adam became male and female.


I think that the different creation stories of other cultures describe different events. Just because the Abrahamatic faiths will insist that their god is the only one doesn't make it so.

all


Not all Christians do believe that their god is the only one. He is just the one god that they are supposed to follow. The creation myth is one of many. None may be true, as in close to the reality of what actually happened. The Adam and Eve one just has been embraced by those within the Christian religion. Turtle Dove is embracing the creation myth that he likes, neither more or less true than any other creation myth.

Well, yes, some people think their god is the only one, possibly because a lack of experience with gods in general. If you've only heard from one god, in your experience it might be the only one. Doesn't make it true, just jives with a person's UPG.


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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:58 pm

gillyflower wrote:
allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
Turtle dove wrote:
I am extremely difficult to offend and anger.

Good to know.

Turtle dove wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. According to Theosophy (and I believe Edgar Cayce also), Adam was 5 races--the white, yellow, black, red and brown races--that appeared in different portions of the globe. When Eve joined sexless Adam, Adam became male and female.


I think that the different creation stories of other cultures describe different events. Just because the Abrahamatic faiths will insist that their god is the only one doesn't make it so.

all


Not all Christians do believe that their god is the only one. He is just the one god that they are supposed to follow. The creation myth is one of many. None may be true, as in close to the reality of what actually happened. The Adam and Eve one just has been embraced by those within the Christian religion. Turtle Dove is embracing the creation myth that he likes, neither more or less true than any other creation myth.

Well, yes, some people think their god is the only one, possibly because a lack of experience with gods in general. If you've only heard from one god, in your experience it might be the only one. Doesn't make it true, just jives with a person's UPG.


I was just getting my view out there. Not accusing TD of holding the position that everyone had to agree.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Turtle dove on Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:42 pm

gillyflower wrote:Turtle Dove is embracing the creation myth that he likes, neither more or less true than any other creation myth.

Who said I was embracing it? It does resonate with me though, more so than any other myths because there is more logic in it.

http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/secret_doctrine/three_fundamentals.htm

All wrote:I think that the different creation stories of other cultures describe different events.

What do you base this on All? I think that it is the creation myths that show the similarities between all religions.

To avoid misunderstandings: I do not belong to any religious system. Neither am I a theosophist.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by gillyflower on Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:31 pm

My religion does not have a creation myth nor do we have a creator god.

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Re: A Study of Morality

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:09 pm

Turtle dove wrote:What do you base this on All? I think that it is the creation myths that show the similarities between all religions.

They will certainly show the similarities between cosmogenic narratives which share similar roots: Near Middle eastern (Caananite, Babylonian, Judaic) Indo-European (Greek, Vedic, Norse). The first has similar elements involving a sky deity doing battle with a sea deity; the later with aspects of fire and water/ fire and ice, and the cosmos being formed from an act of dismemberment. There are however, distinct differences when one explores the individual cultural myths, and certainly when comparing myths from the first with the second.

All too often, people are willing to ignore the differences in favour of the similarities; at the cost of the details (and a large chunk of understanding and meaning)

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