What does "son of God" really mean?

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What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:03 pm

The most well known part of christianity is the saying that Jesus is "god's only son". What do you suppose that REALLY means? What is "son" supposed to mean in the spiritual sense. As I understand it, a SON is produced by the joining of a male and a female in sexual union. The offspring incorporates the DNA of both parents.

Jesus is supposed to be god as well . . . . but also stated to be "god's son". Is this just a metaphor?
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:07 am

First, not only son; only begotten son

look to Jesus' own words: I and my Father am one; before Abraham was/ I AM

that his DNA is human; but his soul is made of God stuff-pure and uncorrupted by human failings
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:39 am

But a SON is the product of the parent, by definition. It must exist after the parent, and be created. And a son isn't the same person as his father. I'm trying to look past what may be figurative language here.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by tmarie64 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:52 am

Why? You don't believe in it. This isn't really a "debate", so why? Is it just, yet another, veiled shot at those who choose to follow this path, instead of questioning every single solitary thing in it?
So, why are you trying to look past something you obviously don't believe in? Do you question all the figurative language you encounter?
I'm just curious as to why those who choose not to believe feel the need to question something they don't believe in.

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:59 am

DeavonReye wrote:But a SON is the product of the parent, by definition. It must exist after the parent, and be created. And a son isn't the same person as his father. I'm trying to look past what may be figurative language here.
If you really want to get into a trinitarian discussion

this helps me:
the Father is God outside of time

the Spirit is God acting inside of time in the spiritual realm
the Son is God acting inside of time in the physical realm

therefore John can say all things were made by Him

and Paul can say He holds all things together
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:01 pm

Son of God is also an ancient title for royalty
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:17 pm

Compare these OT passages

Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ps 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Ho 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:20 pm

You know what, . . . just forget it.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:25 pm

and these NT passages:

Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mt 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Mr 1:1 ΒΆ The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mr 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mr 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Mr 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lu 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Lu 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Lu 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Lu 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Lu 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Ac 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:29 pm

DeavonReye wrote:You know what, . . . just forget it.

I can give you lots more passages and comparisons.

Bottom line is really not in the title Son of God but in the confession of Thomas-

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

From early on in Christianity, Jesus was worshipped as God.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:32 pm

Davelaw wrote:
From early on in Christianity, Jesus was worshipped as God.

By some of the earliest sects...others thought Jesus no more divine than any one of us.

There was a great deal more variety of belief among the earliest Christians than many people today are aware of. Some believed, for instance, that all the Jewish laws must still be observed.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:43 pm

You can if you want, Dave. I actually had something else I was going for, but too many feelings get hurt.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:45 pm

I'm very aware of that and the disdain that some of the groups had for each other. Although it seems that the Jerusalem Church kept the disparate groups some what unified until the death of James and the Judean revolt.

Its interesting to note that although some groups split off invoking James and Jewish ritual purity; the Desponyi (James' blood relatives maintained ties to the greater Christian community as well as leadership positions.)

There is also archeological evidence of Semitic communities in Syria with ties to the Byzantine Church deep into the 5th century.

As well as the textual evidence that the Didache is essentially a Christianized Jewish manual for new converts.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:49 pm

DeavonReye wrote:You can if you want, Dave. I actually had something else I was going for, but too many feelings get hurt.

If you feel you need to spare Tmarie's feelings; fine-but don't worry about me. I'm confident in my personal interaction with the living God and have a decent command of scripture as well as history, Biblical criticism and apologetics.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:54 pm

DeavonReye wrote:But a SON is the product of the parent, by definition. It must exist after the parent, and be created. And a son isn't the same person as his father. I'm trying to look past what may be figurative language here.

You have to view it from the ancient middle eastern perspective-the son is the father and the father the son. thats why is it was not unjust to punish sons for the sins of their fathers or unusual for fathers to repent for the sins of their sons
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by Davelaw on Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:04 pm

tmarie64 wrote:Why? You don't believe in it. This isn't really a "debate", so why? Is it just, yet another, veiled shot at those who choose to follow this path, instead of questioning every single solitary thing in it?
So, why are you trying to look past something you obviously don't believe in? Do you question all the figurative language you encounter?
I'm just curious as to why those who choose not to believe feel the need to question something they don't believe in.

maybe Deavon is still trying to make sense of it all

just because he has rejected Jesus for now; doesn't mean it is for all time-if he wants to seek/let him seek

i'm just sad that the charismatic church he left/ gave him no training in how to deal with doubts and questions
no training in historical/grammitical textual criticism
no differentiation bevtvween higher and lower criticism
he says it was a Fundamentalist Church; but yet has no background in intellectual fundamentalism
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by gillyflower on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:07 pm

I liked the Historical Jesus class discussion about it, that the demi-god bit was a later addition from the Greek influence. Demi-gods were all the rage in the Mediterranean. Then again I liked the Arian ideas, probably an early sign that I was destined for another religion. Smile

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by sacrificialgoddess on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:32 pm

Deavon, were you going towards some kind of sex with gods angle?

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:10 pm

No, sg.
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:32 pm

If Deavon is anything like I was shortly after I realized that Christianity didn't make any sense to me, I suspect he's simply trying to figure out how he feels about it all and what, if anything, there is to Christianity that might eventually draw him back either to some form of it or at least to a more-informed respect.

In a way, it was something akin to Kubler-Ross's stages of dying. I went through being thoroughly pissed off that I'd been basically lied to all those years of my upbringing and then wanted to learn everything I could about the underpinnings of Christianity so that I'd know more about what was most likely true and what was just being passed off as literal truth to the undiscerning.

I really marvel at those such as Davelaw who are obviously intelligent and well-informed but who nevertheless believe that the essential aspects of Christianity are true. Didn't happen for me, and sometimes I even now miss that type of assurance.

However, thankfully, I've found a similar assurance in other beliefs more than somewhat distant from Christianity. That early conditioning dies hard though, and sometimes I wonder...

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:47 pm

I had a lot of unresolved problems with Christianity when I left - I took it out on the Christians on beliefnet, worked the aggression, anger, fear, resentment out of my system and 7 years later, I'm emotionally free to move on. Grief takes time.

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by TigersEyeDowsing on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:48 pm

Crossposted with Dot... Damn, we're good.

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:34 pm

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Crossposted with Dot... Damn, we're good.

GMTA.

Or maybe considering the weirdnesses we each have for belief systems, it's mere synchronicity. Ya spose?

heh heh
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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by John T Mainer on Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:16 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:If Deavon is anything like I was shortly after I realized that Christianity didn't make any sense to me, I suspect he's simply trying to figure out how he feels about it all and what, if anything, there is to Christianity that might eventually draw him back either to some form of it or at least to a more-informed respect.

In a way, it was something akin to Kubler-Ross's stages of dying. I went through being thoroughly pissed off that I'd been basically lied to all those years of my upbringing and then wanted to learn everything I could about the underpinnings of Christianity so that I'd know more about what was most likely true and what was just being passed off as literal truth to the undiscerning.

I really marvel at those such as Davelaw who are obviously intelligent and well-informed but who nevertheless believe that the essential aspects of Christianity are true. Didn't happen for me, and sometimes I even now miss that type of assurance.

However, thankfully, I've found a similar assurance in other beliefs more than somewhat distant from Christianity. That early conditioning dies hard though, and sometimes I wonder...


You will find the rarest thing in the universe is one who is honest enough intellectually to grant that someone can be just as reasonable as you, just as logical as you, but view reality through a set of assumptions you reject utterly.

Understand, logic can make many opposing arguements true, depending on which sets of premises turn out to be correct. Nobody embraces a worldview based on assumptions they "know" are wrong, we all stand rooted in the premises we "know" to be true, and those who have delved deeply into their paths are not only anchored in the unassailable logic of our faith, but set firmly upon the path of its myriad implications.

Rare is the man who can look at someone with utterly different assumptions, yet equally sound logic, and grant to him or her the respect of another true seeker, walking the path of thier calling with their eyes open, their heart open, and their mind ever testing. I have no problem with Christians, Muslims, or Jews. While their god is not of my tribal heritage, he is the god of the tribes of Judea, and doubtless has much to teach those who are meant to follow him. Many more try to follow a path they cannot see, do not understand, and end up lost because of it, that does not mean that in their number are not legions of true seekers as well. Every faith and path has those on it who are on the wrong path, it is hardly an arguement against the path; meerly evidence of one seeker at this moment not yet where they need to be. Honestly, how many of us can say that at some point that wasn't us?

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Re: What does "son of God" really mean?

Post by DeavonReye on Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:46 am

Often times, I DO try to make sense of a religious system that I once believed in, and now that I have gone away from it, I DO tend to go back to it trying to figure out why I did. . . and why others do, too. I must admit that it isn't fair to those who still believe it. However, if my opinions are faulty, or actually have no value [in what the actual believe is about], then I'm not sure why someone would get upset about those types of comments. If what is said is false, correct.

It just seems that when topics get brought up, it seems to cause offense, . . . and I have to wonder why. The point I was wanting to make with this thread really isn't what I would call "christian friendly". . . . but I could simply be wrong in how I perceive what I have about it. If that's the case, then I've learned something. I just have to wonder if any anger comes about because what I post has merit, and that offense comes from someone who suddenly finds themself pondering the topic, which would be dangerous to their faith.

What I post is not meant to offend anyone. I'm sure things will, but it isn't my goal. Just trying to figure out why this religion played such a role in my past.
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