God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by DotNotInOz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:49 pm

Sakhaiva wrote:
When thinking of prayer, we need to look not only to science, but to psychology and metaphysics too.

Oh, I agree, Sakhaiva. Perhaps I wasn't clear that I was referring largely to prayer with expectations, as I call it--mostly to praying for someone suffering a physical illness or emotional distress for their healing or cure.

I believe healings, miracles & answered prayers happen on the subtle level.

Maybe so, but how do we know that anything other than an unexpected change of attitude on the part of the person praying or being prayed for occurred? This seems so highly subjective that it simply can't be measured or verified in any sense other than the person's testimony that s/he feels wonderfully or miraculously better.

Even the medical review board at Lourdes will not label what most laypeople and clergy refer to as miraculous cures there as anything but "medically inexplicable cures." If they demand rigorous medical evaluation, I feel that we must be similarly scrupulous before declaring that prayer works to bring about healing and cures. You, Sakhaiva and others, undoubtedly will disagree.

Moving on, there are more benifits to prayer than simply granted wishes.


Of course there are those who believe that praying brings about direct or subtle results. However, despite a few studies, most of which were subsequently disparaged as having been badly set up or contaminated by other influences, there's no evidence of success that I know of other than emotional or spiritual boosts--highly subjective, I'm sure you'll agree--from praying or being prayed for.


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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by silverswhispers on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:14 am

DeavonReye wrote:I have something that I'm wanting to discuss, but first, for those who are well versed in the Bible and of God, . . . is it possible for God to "sin"?

If God is able to do anything then there is nothing he could not do. Further, if we really are a part of God and a part of himself then our sins would by default be his sins. Further still, the things he did in the name of himself in the old testament in particular go against his own tenets and thus would be a form of sin in themselves. I'm not sure why the rules wouldn't apply to him as well as a measure of sin even if he cannot be punished for them.

Another thought/question is that I do not believe in the biblical god so is it even possible for me to sin? Sinning is something that seems like only a Christian could do regardless of the temptation to impose your beliefs of sin upon others.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by DotNotInOz on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:52 am

silverswhispers wrote:Further still, the things he did in the name of himself in the old testament in particular go against his own tenets and thus would be a form of sin in themselves. I'm not sure why the rules wouldn't apply to him as well as a measure of sin even if he cannot be punished for them.

I've long wondered why it's not only okay but glorious for the OT God to exterminate whole nations and tribes regarded as enemies of the Israelites.

Seemed to me pretty unnecessary and quite cruel for God to have killed off the firstborn sons of all the Egyptians while their smearing blood on the doorposts signified that the family was Jewish and thus the Angel of Death was to pass by without claiming the eldest son of those houses. What sense did it make for God to "harden Pharoah's heart" so that more and more ridiculous plagues got laid upon a bunch of innocent Egyptians simply because their ruler was reluctant to relinquish so much slave labor?

It's understandable why so many Christians say that many biblical accounts and concepts are simply beyond our understanding and thus we must just have faith that God will reveal them to us more fully eventually. I see this as a really idiotic excuse for the simple fact that much of the Christian Bible makes no sense whatsoever. This is the BIBLE, supposedly God's Word about what faith and life are supposed to be, and yet much of it's so obscure that the more honest clergy today will admit they haven't Clue #1 what a good deal of it means. God is a raging and vindictive tyrant through much of the OT, killing off innocent people for no good reason than that their deaths give over land, goods and rapable women to the men of the "Chosen People." Ridiculously implausible myths, most of it, intended to encourage a rather primitive nomadic tribe to feel exalted and special for no logical reason.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by silverswhispers on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:16 am

DotNotInOz wrote:
silverswhispers wrote:Further still, the things he did in the name of himself in the old testament in particular go against his own tenets and thus would be a form of sin in themselves. I'm not sure why the rules wouldn't apply to him as well as a measure of sin even if he cannot be punished for them.

I've long wondered why it's not only okay but glorious for the OT God to exterminate whole nations and tribes regarded as enemies of the Israelites.

Seemed to me pretty unnecessary and quite cruel for God to have killed off the firstborn sons of all the Egyptians while their smearing blood on the doorposts signified that the family was Jewish and thus the Angel of Death was to pass by without claiming the eldest son of those houses. What sense did it make for God to "harden Pharoah's heart" so that more and more ridiculous plagues got laid upon a bunch of innocent Egyptians simply because their ruler was reluctant to relinquish so much slave labor?

It's understandable why so many Christians say that many biblical accounts and concepts are simply beyond our understanding and thus we must just have faith that God will reveal them to us more fully eventually. I see this as a really idiotic excuse for the simple fact that much of the Christian Bible makes no sense whatsoever. This is the BIBLE, supposedly God's Word about what faith and life are supposed to be, and yet much of it's so obscure that the more honest clergy today will admit they haven't Clue #1 what a good deal of it means. God is a raging and vindictive tyrant through much of the OT, killing off innocent people for no good reason than that their deaths give over land, goods and rapable women to the men of the "Chosen People." Ridiculously implausible myths, most of it, intended to encourage a rather primitive nomadic tribe to feel exalted and special for no logical reason.

I grew up the non radical version of Baptist and for a period of time, as a teen, I gave it serious focus and did so by my own accord. As time went on I started asking questions that I couldn't just settle for such weak answers and so I sought to answer them on my own. It was hard to 'break free' of the institutionalized fear that is the foundation of Christianity (Could Christianity really exist without the fear of hell?) but I have moved on in every way. However, culturally it has obviously influenced me in many ways.

One of my core issues with the bible is that if it really is the word of God then why is it so obviously and painfully imperfect. Only the blindly faithful can see past the draconian tactics used in the old testament and the, once more, painfully clear inconsistencies, impossibilities and irrational parts of the bible. I've given the faithful literally hundreds of clear issues and asked to answer just one and if they have tried to answer them they are always huge stretches of logic.

I would think that if the bible was the real words of God it would truly be Perfect... Like a beautiful poem in an epic form. Instead it is anything but that.






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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by warlordofks on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:23 pm

silverswhispers wrote:
DotNotInOz wrote:
silverswhispers wrote:Further still, the things he did in the name of himself in the old testament in particular go against his own tenets and thus would be a form of sin in themselves. I'm not sure why the rules wouldn't apply to him as well as a measure of sin even if he cannot be punished for them.

I've long wondered why it's not only okay but glorious for the OT God to exterminate whole nations and tribes regarded as enemies of the Israelites.

Seemed to me pretty unnecessary and quite cruel for God to have killed off the firstborn sons of all the Egyptians while their smearing blood on the doorposts signified that the family was Jewish and thus the Angel of Death was to pass by without claiming the eldest son of those houses. What sense did it make for God to "harden Pharoah's heart" so that more and more ridiculous plagues got laid upon a bunch of innocent Egyptians simply because their ruler was reluctant to relinquish so much slave labor?

It's understandable why so many Christians say that many biblical accounts and concepts are simply beyond our understanding and thus we must just have faith that God will reveal them to us more fully eventually. I see this as a really idiotic excuse for the simple fact that much of the Christian Bible makes no sense whatsoever. This is the BIBLE, supposedly God's Word about what faith and life are supposed to be, and yet much of it's so obscure that the more honest clergy today will admit they haven't Clue #1 what a good deal of it means. God is a raging and vindictive tyrant through much of the OT, killing off innocent people for no good reason than that their deaths give over land, goods and rapable women to the men of the "Chosen People." Ridiculously implausible myths, most of it, intended to encourage a rather primitive nomadic tribe to feel exalted and special for no logical reason.

I grew up the non radical version of Baptist and for a period of time, as a teen, I gave it serious focus and did so by my own accord. As time went on I started asking questions that I couldn't just settle for such weak answers and so I sought to answer them on my own. It was hard to 'break free' of the institutionalized fear that is the foundation of Christianity (Could Christianity really exist without the fear of hell?) but I have moved on in every way. However, culturally it has obviously influenced me in many ways.

One of my core issues with the bible is that if it really is the word of God then why is it so obviously and painfully imperfect. Only the blindly faithful can see past the draconian tactics used in the old testament and the, once more, painfully clear inconsistencies, impossibilities and irrational parts of the bible. I've given the faithful literally hundreds of clear issues and asked to answer just one and if they have tried to answer them they are always huge stretches of logic.

I would think that if the bible was the real words of God it would truly be Perfect... Like a beautiful poem in an epic form. Instead it is anything but that.







Ah DoT & Silver. I've beeb asking the same questions ever since I left & turned away from Christianity in 2000. And getting the same weak answers. I myself have called the God of the Bible murderous, insane, psycotic & evil God.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by gillyflower on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:18 pm

Watching the god grow from a barbaric tribal god to the god of love is quite fascinating, IMO.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by Gorm_Sionnach on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:46 pm

gillyflower wrote:Watching the god grow from a barbaric tribal god to the god of love is quite fascinating, IMO.

I've no problem with deities of war, or deities who champion their own. Only when the nature of that deity is ignored, in favour of trying to develop a wholly foreign concept of deity, and in doing so, the attempt at reconciling this war god with a universal, omnibenevolent deity, as being one and the same, do such theological slight of hands become necessary. I admit, the process is none the less interesting.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by DeavonReye on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:48 am

Some have been bringing about the actual history of the Old Testament, and others have made the information known to others. . . . . that the "monotheism" of the OT wasn't set forth until around 600 bce. Before that, Yahwah WAS just a "tribal war god", . . . one amongst many. . . .and the one that the Hebrews choose to cling to.

The history of the transformations really is fascinating, . . . and I bet much of this information had never been known by MOST christians. . . and is only now being talked about.

The Youtube person called Evid3nc3 has really brought this all to the forefront for many.

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Re: God/Bible scholars. Can God sin?

Post by warlordofks on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:56 am

DeavonReye wrote:Some have been bringing about the actual history of the Old Testament, and others have made the information known to others. . . . . that the "monotheism" of the OT wasn't set forth until around 600 bce. Before that, Yahwah WAS just a "tribal war god", . . . one amongst many. . . .and the one that the Hebrews choose to cling to.

The history of the transformations really is fascinating, . . . and I bet much of this information had never been known by MOST christians. . . and is only now being talked about.

The Youtube person called Evid3nc3 has really brought this all to the forefront for many.

Actually Deavon. In my case it was actually because of sitting down & reading the Bible with open eyes instead of reading it by what I had been taught to believe & think. After that I then embarked on a field of studying what others more knowledgable in the fields of Bible Study, Christian History & Ancient Religions had to say. Needless to say it was very eyeopening & revealing. I could no longer go back to Christianity now nor join another of Humanities Religions. This is not to say that I don't have my own private Spiritual Belief. Because I do.

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