Missionary Debate thread

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:46 pm

Davelaw wrote:

relgious tolerance is the original Baptist creedo-everyone is allowed to worship in the way they choose-we just want our shot to present the truth as we see it as well


Maybe the original Baptists felt that way, and perhaps some today. But when I lived in NC (major Baptist country), a lot of what I heard essentially said that people could believe what they wanted-but at their peril. IOW 'they can believe what they want, but if they don't believe as we do, they're going to hell'. Hopefully that's not a standard teaching everywhere, but it sure as hell was where I lived. I can't see you saying things like this, though, and it seems to me that Baptists are a very diverse lot anyway.

(mini-rant, not meant personally toward anyone)
As for 'born again', I never understood why some people think it has to be some major emotional experience. Wouldn't a true transformation like that happen over time, not instantaneously as some like to think? Or that someone would come to belief over time rather than in one big 'poof'? That's how it was with me, learning and coming to believe over time spent with some good friends who taught me about Jesus. And why would the faith or conversion or whatever of the people who make a big emotional show of it be considered 'more authentic' than those of us who lived a decent life before but came to belief in Jesus over time? I wasn't an alcoholic or juvenile delinquent or whatever before I became a Christian, and I was taught the same morals and values in terms of how to treat other people that Christianity teaches, just not by that name...but somehow my conversion isn't as 'authentic' and I'm not 'truly born again' because my story isn't that exciting.
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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by gillyflower on Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:48 pm

In my religion, we strive to have a personal relationship with our gods so "born again" is kind of meaningless to me. You either have that or you don't. The Christian idea of a personal relationship with Jesus though seems to be different from what a Wiccan is talking about.

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:52 pm

This might sound like an odd question, but does it matter what stage of life a person begins a relationship with your gods, or what their life was like before? I ask because I have heard it said that people who are raised going to church aren't really 'born again' or that their Christianity isn't as 'strong' because they never 'made a decision' for Jesus. IOW, all of the 'deciding' has been done for them, so nothing has changed and they haven't 'become a new creation'. I've heard it from the Pentecostal-style non-denominationals more than anything else, but somewhat from JWs.

This to me just seems stupid because we all come to a stage in our lives where we sit back, re-examine what we've been taught and decide where to go from there. Our parents can bring us to the door, but at some point we have to go through it. If someone does go through it, wouldn't that mean that they 'decided for' a relationship with Jesus? Just like the self-proclaimed 'born agains' did? For me, a lot of this happened in college, the first time I was away from home for long. I find that if we do this self-evaluation and come to the same conclusion we started with (as have most people I've known who were raised Christians), the conviction and appreciation for that conclusion is that much stronger for having been tested.

Oh, and, I've heard this most often from people who were raised going to church, but have simply changed to one of the more 'charismatic' denominations that are very popular here.
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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by Davelaw on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:40 pm

gillyflower wrote:In my religion, we strive to have a personal relationship with our gods so "born again" is kind of meaningless to me. You either have that or you don't. The Christian idea of a personal relationship with Jesus though seems to be different from what a Wiccan is talking about.

"born from above" might be a more accurate description
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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by tmarie64 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:48 pm

BD, some religions will tell you that it doesn't really matter. That being "saved" actually saves you. I think that's b.s. I don't believe that someone like Hitler or Dahmer or McVeigh can go to jail and suddenly "FIND JAYSUSUH" and be saved from all his wrongs. NOT buying it.

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:19 pm

Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:This might sound like an odd question, but does it matter what stage of life a person begins a relationship with your gods, or what their life was like before? I ask because I have heard it said that people who are raised going to church aren't really 'born again' or that their Christianity isn't as 'strong' because they never 'made a decision' for Jesus. IOW, all of the 'deciding' has been done for them, so nothing has changed and they haven't 'become a new creation'. I've heard it from the Pentecostal-style non-denominationals more than anything else, but somewhat from JWs.

This to me just seems stupid because we all come to a stage in our lives where we sit back, re-examine what we've been taught and decide where to go from there. Our parents can bring us to the door, but at some point we have to go through it. If someone does go through it, wouldn't that mean that they 'decided for' a relationship with Jesus? Just like the self-proclaimed 'born agains' did? For me, a lot of this happened in college, the first time I was away from home for long. I find that if we do this self-evaluation and come to the same conclusion we started with (as have most people I've known who were raised Christians), the conviction and appreciation for that conclusion is that much stronger for having been tested.

Oh, and, I've heard this most often from people who were raised going to church, but have simply changed to one of the more 'charismatic' denominations that are very popular here.

Listen, a lot of people like to think that they have the One True Religion (or denomination within that religion) and then like to tell everyone else UR DOING IT WRONG.(smirk, smirk) Name the religion and you can find this going on. It does not mean that everyone is "doing it wrong," it usually means that the person who is saying it is a jerk or, to be kinder, ignorant.

I don't know about your religion but the only one deciding who is "doing it wrong" is the gods, in my religion. Some people say only Xs who agree with me will get into heaven (or whatever the goal is) but they really don't have the final say, do they? They are trying to talk for their gods. In my religion, that is unwise to say the least. My gods decide things like that and they really don't care what I decide they are going to do. All they have to say is "Watch me."

I know we are of different religions, but if you have a good relationship with your god or gods, it really doesn't matter what ignorant people say, does it? Your god has the final say and if s/he loves you now, s/he isn't going to stop.

(I always look at them (the people who tell you you are going to hell or whatever) and think, which kind of person, if I were a god, would I like surrounding me for eternity? Mean hypocrites or good people who are kind and generous to other beings and know how to love, not to mention party. You be the judge.)

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:25 pm

Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:In my religion, we strive to have a personal relationship with our gods so "born again" is kind of meaningless to me. You either have that or you don't. The Christian idea of a personal relationship with Jesus though seems to be different from what a Wiccan is talking about.

"born from above" might be a more accurate description

in my religion "good friends with" is more a accurate description of our relationship with our gods.

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by MaineCaptain on Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:49 pm

gillyflower wrote:
Davelaw wrote:
gillyflower wrote:In my religion, we strive to have a personal relationship with our gods so "born again" is kind of meaningless to me. You either have that or you don't. The Christian idea of a personal relationship with Jesus though seems to be different from what a Wiccan is talking about.

"born from above" might be a more accurate description

in my religion "good friends with" is more a accurate description of our relationship with our gods.
That is how it is, in my relationship with the gods as well, Gilly

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Gilly, I see things very similarly to you. From what I've read from you, I have a lot more in common with you in the way of belief than I do with some people who say they're Christians.

Dave's good people. Smile
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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by gillyflower on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:07 pm

Yes, he is... and so are you.

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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by DeavonReye on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:15 pm

Oh my freakin' goodness, Beautiful_Dreamer, . . . that is the most adorable avatar I've seen in a while!

But back to the topic.... Embarassed
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Re: Missionary Debate thread

Post by Beautiful_Dreamer on Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:42 pm

LOL thanks! I found it online. My cats all have horns and carry pitchforks. Smile

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