Historical Jesus

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Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:17 pm

I've lately found iTunes U and am still in the crush stage! I'm taking Roman Architecture offered by Yale and loving it. It is offered in audio and video formats along with course notes. I do so miss going to college and learning new things and being excited by lectures.

Anyway, I have just downloaded the first lecture from the course Historical Jesus offered by Stanford University. It is (it says) a "course about history, not about faith or theology....What did he actually say and do, as contrasted with what early Christians (e.g., Paul and the Gospel writers) believed that he said and did?"

It looks to be very interesting. I urge everyone who has iTunes to explore the offerings. There is a Wiccan ceremony on video. I haven't seen it yet though. And there is a meditation series as well.

Oh, and Angry Birds is a silly but fun game! Smile

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:33 pm

What is an itunes U?

Embarassed

I'm only half kidding. My stepmom in law is a gadget person, and gave me an MP3 a few years ago. I think I have it around here somewhere. Played with it for a week or so, and then I think I just let it set and haven't looked for it since.

Is this something I should check out?

all
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:38 pm

OMG, I had NO idea iTunes had lectures! Gilly , you are going to best me good on this one and i'll have to defer to you as the HJ expert.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:42 pm

Maybe! I LOVE going to college and taking interesting (to me) courses. I've thought that when I retire, I'd like to go back to college just to take fun courses that I didn't have time to take and my idea of a great vacation would be to take one of those elder hostel cruises or tours or go to a European university where you take lectures and read books, etc.

So if you like to learn like that, iTunes U has some recorded and videotaped courses, lecture series, where you can watch or listen to college courses taught by excellent professors or listen to visiting professors on a board, discussing a subject. It also has some things that aren't worth my time. Yale and Stanford and MIT and UC Berkley have some good things up. There is a lot of computer science and med stuff and math, it looks like. Hmm.... I may go looking to see if anyone has a guide to what is the best on there.

It is part of the universities outreach and adult continuing education service - and the best part it is free. If you follow the links you can find the course notes and things like that.

I'm sorry I'm going on and on about this but it is like rain on a parched flower to me! I have missed a formal learning atmosphere so much. Smile

I've listened to the first Historical Jesus class (I'm downloading the 2nd) and I would like to run out and buy the books! It is really excellent and good for both believers and non-believers. The professor is very interesting! He has some things to say about modern Christian movements too.

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:00 pm

Holy milkmen!

http://www.openculture.com/freeonlinecourses

My head just exploded! Thanks Gilly!
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:40 am

That's exactly what I wanted to see! A list of all the offerings... Thank you, Sak.

Isn't the internet wonderful?

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by allthegoodnamesweretaken on Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:18 am

The best part is, alot of them are offered on you tube. That way I don't have to go and buy a player!

score!
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:15 am

Yale's classes are available at the college website for download, too. Stanfords are only on iTunes though. I think I've talked a man at work into listening to Historical Jesus. I am really enjoying those lectures. Smile

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:51 pm

Hmmm...I'll have to check into this. Sounds fascinating.

Off-topic for a wee bit, I really enjoy the podcasts of Garrison Keillor's Writer's Almanac and The Splendid Table, both from NPR. I'm way behind on listening to them currently, but I keep up regularly during the winter when I haven't outdoor fun to distract me.

Podcasts can become a serious addiction when you subscribe to the free ones as these are. Dangerous!
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:54 pm

DOT, you are making me crave powdermilk biscuits (they're in the blue box with a picture of a biscuit on the front)
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by DotNotInOz on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:04 pm

Sakhaiva wrote:DOT, you are making me crave powdermilk biscuits (they're in the blue box with a picture of a biscuit on the front)

With real butter and a good strong cup of coffee down at the Chatterbox Cafe, eh? I know the feeling.

Heavens! they're tasty and expeditious.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Davelaw on Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:52 pm

Catsup ... nature's sedative
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Beribee on Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:17 pm

OK, Gilly, I downloaded the first 4 lectures.....if I don't get any sleep because I'm up listening to these, it's all your fault! LOL

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by ZenYen on Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:50 pm

Hey, Gilly ... I'm listening to the same lecture series. I've heard one and two, and downloaded three just a bit ago. Great stuff, and dovetails nicely with some things I've read lately.

iTunes U. has a huge range of subject matter: history, literature, science, math, political science, languages, poetry -- you name it. And it's free -- can't go wrong there.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by TPaine on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:04 am

Gilly, I promise you I won't tell my wife that you were the one that let me know about iTunes U. She already resents the time I spend on the computer, and I have a feeling that now that time is going to go up drastically. Historical Jesus will be at the top of the list.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:55 pm

Just in case this happens to anyone else, they did not download in order for me. The syllabus has the correct order:

1 CALL ME YESHUA Introduction to the course
2. KINGDOM AND CATASTROPHE A history of Israel
3. LEFT BEHIND The first century of Christianity
4. PEALING THE ONION From the Gospels and Paul back to Yeshua
5. APOCALYPSE NOW From the Baptist to the Kingdom
6. WORDS AND WONDERS The ways of a prophet
7. THE EMPIRE UNLEASHED Passion and death
8. CRISIS AND CONTINUITY The making of a martyr
9. APOCALYPSE TO COME Awakening the prophet
10. RESURRECTION Rewriting history

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:18 pm

I'm listening to the lecture (just finished part 1)and there is much I like, especially the use of the correct name
(Yeshua) and the questions regarding canonization (eg, why was the
Gospel of Thomas left out, yet Revelation included?) were thought provoking.

There's one small bit that bugged me a bit; Sheehan was to limit his discourse to historical tidbits... yet he stated that Yeshua lived in India as if it were fact when, in reality, it is still only a
theory. (Notovich's writings have been discredited and there is no
credible historical evidence to support it.) (Don't get me wrong, I'd
love to find that it's true.. you know it!) I just wonder why he felt the need to include this.... and frame it as a fact.

On to part deux!
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:44 pm

re pt 2 ... oh yes! I love the opener re: M.A. Ferguson who, when asked why she vetoed a bill that would teach Spanish to schoolchildren, she replied: "If English was good enough for our Jesus Christ then it's good enough for us" (!!!)

That is a very good example of certain attitudes; familiarity really can be the enemy of truth.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by AutumnalTone on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:58 pm

As there's no historical evidence of any such person as Yeshua, then having no evidence of him living in India is moot, no? It is interesting to see the layers peeled back to expose the foundations on which the later materials built.
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by Sakhaiva on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:30 pm

Autumnal Tone; keep this line of reasoning going and we'll be forced to render the entire lecture moot. Wink Basically, there is no historical evidence for Jeshua; however, we have ample amounts of writings ...

... considering the volume of things written about him, and of his followers, it is logical to deduce that there really was a historical Yeshua who went around doing things to stir people up, and that he was crucified by the Romans. Consider a non-Christian source (though not a contemporary of Yeshua):

Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in
his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized
Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's
persecution of this group following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he
wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and
inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their
abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus,
from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during
the reign of Tiberius 14–37 at the hands of one of our procurators,
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for
the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the
evil, but even in Rome




On a final note, if we use the same line of reasoning that the "Jesus Myth" people cling to and apply it to other historical figures, we'll find ourselves doing quite a lot of erasing....

(LOL, I googled this and came to "Ebon's Musings" .. Ebon, is that your site? )
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:37 pm

The history of that time period is fascinating to me. I wasn't aware of what it meant in their world to be a Nazarene.

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:36 pm

deleted...too contentious
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by DotNotInOz on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:53 pm

I find it interesting indeed that this passage from Tacitus is so often cited as evidence attesting (even marginally) to the historicality of Jesus (or Yeshua, if you prefer) when Tacitus is clearly quite hostile toward the "evil superstition" Christianity and writing nearly a full century after the time Jesus may have lived.

His writing about events of the time of Jesus is akin to my producing "eyewitness" commentary on the American Civil War when I was a high school student.


Last edited by DotNotInOz on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:53 pm

I think there comes a point where I'm more interested in discussions about what the best guesses of the present time are concerning the historical Jesus and the things going on historically about that time in that area of the world than discussions about if he existed or not. Nope, there is no direct evidence but it doesn't really matter to me just like it doesn't matter to me if Romulus or Remus actually existed or not. They are intertwined in the history of their people and culture.

The myths about Jesus and where they came from are interesting. There are different kinds of myths. Q is fascinating too. I'm learning a lot as well about how the Evangelicals evolved their modern view of the bible and Jesus. They think they are going back to the early Christians and they have no idea! The man teaching the course wanders off from time to time (as all professors do!) but he brings up a lot of things I'd never considered before.

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Re: Historical Jesus

Post by gillyflower on Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:06 pm

DotNotInOz wrote:I find it interesting indeed that this passage from Tacitus is so often cited as evidence attesting (even marginally) to the historicality of Jesus (or Yeshua, if you prefer) when Tacitus is clearly quite hostile toward the "evil superstition" Christianity and writing nearly a full century after the time Jesus may have lived.

His writing about events of the time of Jesus is akin to my producing "eyewitness" commentary on the American Civil War when I was a high school student.

I think it isn't (except by non-experts) used as "proof." It seems to me that the experts are constantly looking for secular sources to compliment religious sources. It is part of the methodology of archeologists and historians. The more sources, the more likely something did happen although not necessarily the way it is reported in any of them.

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